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A Conversation with Tal

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:02 am
by _Gazelam
Tal Bachman of "Shes so High " fame, a great song bytheway (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVKcfwJxa54) has requested a seperate thread regarding the topics of both a witnes of the spirit and the Book of Moses. Heres an excerpt from the other thread:

About Gazelam's question - Yes of course, I had loads of spiritual experiences; otherwise I wouldn't have been, I think, the most zealous member I ever knew. (I don't think I'd have eight kids, either, as it happens). And sure, I had riveting spiritual experiences before, during, and after my mission. Mormonism was my entire life; and certainly, without it nothing would have made sense. I couldn't even conceive of life without it. That is why it was so terrible - nauseating and disorienting and heartbreaking - to find out it wasn't what it claimed to be. In that moment, my entire identity vanished, I had no idea how to make sense of anything...it was really like a nightmare coming true. It was the worst moment of my entire life.

So, perhaps the question really ought to be about what the "spiritual experience" might be, if it is not some inculcation of "absolute knowledge" into us, as we imagine, from the creator of the universe, that "Joseph Smith always told the truth". After all, he, to put it simply, did not. What then of those very real "spiritual experiences"? That is a very good question, but maybe one for another thread. You probably think the explanation is just the one we always heard as Mormons. I used to, too. After all, unable to fathom any more plausible explanation, what else could we have thought?

About the Book of Moses, I don't know if I'd say that "I" have a problem with it - it is that Joseph Smith's Book of Moses itself has a pretty serious problem. That also might be a good topic for another thread, though.

If you are interested in that issue, Gazelam, there is a very interesting little book by Biblical/Hebrew scholar Richard Elliot Friedman called "The Hidden Book of the Bible". You can buy it off of Amazon.com or probably call around to Borders or Barnes and Noble. They often carry it. It sounds like a snore, but it's actually very engaging - it describes how the narrative portions of the Old Testament were put together; and it is very relevant to Joseph Smith's claims for his Book of Moses.

Good luck,

Tal


Tal, I'll check out the book you recommended. I have read Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman. It was good and probably touched upon the subject a bit that you bring up.

In regards to understanding the promptings of the Holy Ghost, I'll put something together for you. I have some great talks on the subject, and I'll see if I can cherry pick some good solid doctrine on the matter. Separating emotion from promptings of the Holy Ghost seems to be a common problem for a number of people here on the board.

In the meantime, could I ask you to please try to put in to words exactly what it was regarding the Book of Moses that you had a problem with. A readers digest version since it seems the book had a profound effect on your views. I will pick up the book tommorow and give it a read.

Gaz

Discerning the Spirit

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:26 am
by _Gazelam
There is an old jewish saying that there is no stirring above until there is a stirring below. God remains unknown until we put forth the effort to receive a revelation. In the language of the Mormon church we say that you receive no witness until after a trial of your faith. If we wish to know if God is there, or if a point of doctrine is true, we must pray.

D&C 32:8-9
8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

You can only know God through prayer and revelation. God asks that we pray so that we can begin to grow our spiritual muscles and understand that we must desire righteousness and stretch ourselves through faith.

The question now is, how do we distinguish between revelation and emotion, or personal desires.

One way to discern is to apply to a revelation the "what is its purpose test", or "purity of purpose test". The question often arises among missionaries that while in the field they met many others who had some sort of spiritual experience, and that they think that becasue they were sincere, that matbe they did have a spiritual experience and maybe they're alright.

Lets discern the spirit of this. Whats the purpose of the revelation? If someone is going to say that they received a revelation that tells them that they do not need to be baptised for the remission of their sins, that they are not in need of the companionship of the gift of the Holy Ghost, that they have no need to hear a prophets voice, that surely they don't need to be sealed to their spouse for time and all eternity or any other of the blessing that come from fellowship in the kingdom of God, be suspicious. The Holy Ghost does not give that kind of a revelation.

The Holy Ghost does not go around contradicting himself. If someone says to me that they received a revelation that Jesus was not the Christ, I would be suspicious. I don't find that all that difficult to discern.

What is its purpose. If the revelation genuinely comes from the Lord, its purpose is not going to be to tell someone to close their minds, but to instead open themselves up and receive further light and knowledge. Revelations are not easy things either. They tend to be demanding, they ask a person to stretch and grow.

A good way to study revelations is to look at past revelations and study them to identify characteristics. Two words that are in nearly every scriptural example where revelation is given are Joy and Peace.

Characteristic Joy. The gospel is called the "glad tidings of joy" (D&C 128:19). It caries the spirit that enlightens the heart and brings joy to the soul.

Isa. 35: 10
10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

"I was filled with unspeakable Joy" Joseph Smith said as he described the feeling he experienced in the First Vision "My soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great joy and the Lord was with me."

The three words most common to the spiritual descriptions of those embracing the truths of salvation are: Joy, gladness and rejoicing. As Paul said the gospel is the "Oil of gladness" (Heb 1:9)

Characteristic Peace, a companion of Joy. A feeling frequently found when describing the Spirit of the gospel or ther presence of the Holy Ghost.

Having promised his diciples the companionship of the Holy Ghost Christ said "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27)

By contrast, the spirit of the devil; what does it produce? Confusion, disorder, misery. The spirit of God produces calmness, order, happiness.

The First Vision is a great example. It brought a state of calmness and peace indescribable.

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George A. Smith said:
When a mans mind is illuminated by a dream it leaves a vivid and a pleasant impression. When it may be guided by the Spirit of God it leaves the mind happy and comforted and the understanding clear.


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Oliver Cowdery in describing the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood at the hands of John the Baptist said:
Earth has not the power to give the joy or bestow the peace or comprehend the wisdom which was contained in each sentance as they were delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit.


Similarly in the Old Testament Gideon named the place where he stood face to face with the angel of the Lord Jehovah-shalom meaning "The peace of the Lord". (Judg. 6: 24)

Mosiah 4: 3, 20
3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.

D&C 6: 23
23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

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After his death, Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young in a dream and instrructed him to ""Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."

Brigham Young, vision, Feb. 17, 1847, in Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah; spelling, punctuation, and capitalization modernized.

Characteristic Enlightenment

To receive revelation is to receive light. As all revelation edifies, so all revelation enlightens.

D&C 50:23
And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

that's a good spiritual test. Does it edify?

The word edify comes from the word edifice. An edifice is viwed properly to be a chapel, or a temple. When a chapel or temple was ina state of reconstruction or improvement we called it edifying it. That which edifies improves, build up.

To edify causes you to be built up, added to, improved.

Edify has a companion and that is "To enlighten". The revelations tell us that truth shines, it enlightens both the heart and mind. It quickens the understanding. Or as Joseph Smith said "The sudden stroke of ideas." That quickening of understanding, or feeling of pure intelligence flowing through you, that's not just a matter of a ligth coming on where it used to be dark. Its more a case of a light that was already burning burning more brightly, so that we can see further.

Characteristic Pure, virtuous

D&C 67: 9
9 For ye know that there is no unrighteousness in them, and that which is righteous cometh down from above, from the Father of lights

James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Revelation shows the attributes of God. A manifestation of the nature and character of God. Will a revelation lack wisdom? God is not unwise. Will it lack virtue, purity, or any other Godly attribute? The revelations of heaven will likewise not lack these attributes. The Holy Ghost effects the heart and soul of a man not only createing an abhorence for sin but also gives birth to a disposition to do good continually.

Characteristic Harmony

Truth does not contradict itself. God is not unreliable. All of heavens truths sustain one another. The gospel is everlastingly the same. "What I say unto one I say unto all" (D&C 93:49)

No one receives a revelation telling them to deny Christ, reject his prophets, or their council, to stray from the ordinances, break the covenants...never.

No one receives a revelation that excuses them from the obligation to be obedient to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. This is the doctrine of kindred spirits or the verity that all things seek their own.

D&C 88: 40
40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things

Characteristic Warmth

Anyone who has born testimony when they had not planned to do so has somethignin common with the prophet Jeremiah who stated "...But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not be stayed." (jer. 20:9)

Here is a good example of not being able to recognize the Spirit of the Lord, from the New testament Luke 24. Two men were walking the Emmaus road. the resurrected Savior appeared to them but they did not recognize him. The scriptures state that their "eyes were holden". He joins in their conversation and talks with them and instructs them for some two hours! These men had the resurrected Jesus Christ as their teacher!

They were not intimidated or uncomfortable. They spoke freely and conversed with him. Ask whatever questions they liked and he answered. "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." They get to their destination and sit down to eat, and he breaks bread with them and blesses it and then dissappears.

Only then do they understand the Lord had been with them. They state "Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way" Only retrospectivly were they able to look back and discover what they had experienced and realize they had walked with God.

How often have we walked with God, and felt that warmth, but not had the spiritual maturity to recognize it.

Characteristic Feelings

All true religion brings with it a sense of confidince and assurance, all true religion involves feelings.

Whats a good way to know this? You can't pick up Anti-Mormon literature without reading that we should not trust our feelings. that's a sure sign to know that you should trust them.

Bruce R McConkie stated "All true religion is a feeling."

The first great revelation that Joseph Smith had came while reading the epistle of James. He said "Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again".

That is a perfect definition of revelation, And you know it, you just needed it to pointed out to you.

The Spirit of revelation finds eloquence in the feelings of the heart. Christ taught that only those who understood with their hearts could be converted. Teaching Joseph Smith how to understand revelation Christ said "I will tell you in your mind and in your heart" (D&C 8:2) that's a good concept, the Lord doesent give a mindless revelation. "You shall feel that it is right" (D&C 9:8-9)

Laman and Lemuel, consumed by a spirit of rebellion, could not understand spiritual things. Nephi said they were "Past feeling"(1 Nephi 17:45) They could not feel his words.

Paul taught this as "blindness of the heart" and "past feeling" (Eph 4:18-19) They had darkened their understanding by doing wicked deeds.

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Joseph Smith taught if a doctrine is good "It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know that it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more."

He was used to feasting on that sort of thing. Alma described it as "Swelling motions which enlarge the soul and become delicious to the taste" (Alma 32: 28)

Characteristic Inspiration

The Spirit of the Lord is positive, not negative. Any doctrine properly taught and properly understood inspires, lifts. It gives confidence and hope. Paul used the expression "much assurance" (1 Thes. 1: 5) The Plan of Salvation frees the souls of men, it does not bring bondage.

Any doctrine that discourages or oppresses has either been improperly taught or misunderstood. It is not a characteristic of the doctrines of heaven.

Characteristic Self reliance

In the revelation given as the preface to the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord testifies that the contents of the Book are "true and faithful". All that is revealed from heaven, whether personal or institutional, is by its nature true and faithful.

Trustworthy, loyalty or fidelity are all roots of the word truth. In the scriptures when we talk about truth its not used in its high spiritual meaning, its something that is standing opposite of error.

The truths of heaven are wholy dependable. "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away"(D&C 1:38)

Here is a man that was accustomed to the spirit of revelation:
Psalms 19:7-11
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

Latter Day Saints have not just been promised that it is their right to receive revelation. If you pay attention to the scriptural injunction you will discover what is said is that you don't have the right to be without it. Not is it only your right to receive revelation, it is not your right not to receive revelation. Theres a signifigant difference there. It is our right, it is our obligation.

D&C 121:33
How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.

that's our right, that's our heritage, that's our responsibility.

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:41 am
by _Ray A
Thanks Gaz, you're an inspiration. Keep up your work.

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:10 am
by _Gazelam
Due credit:
Much was liberally lifted from a talk entitled "Understanding Personal Revelation" by Joseph Fielding McConkie. Cassette #2.

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:17 am
by _Blixa
Gaz, read up on old "Man Who Comes Apart," there (George A. Smith), especially his work during the "Reformation." Ditto Jeddy Grant and, of course, BY.

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:37 am
by _gramps
Blixa wrote:Gaz, read up on old "Man Who Comes Apart," there (George A. Smith), especially his work during the "Reformation." Ditto Jeddy Grant and, of course, BY.


Would you be so kind as to explain the "Man Who Comes Apart" reference. Sounds like a name the Indians gave him?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:29 pm
by _Blixa
Yes, he was called that on account of his false teeth, wig and glasses.

Though he looks like a corpulent buffoon in photos, he was one of the more sanguine-minded leaders of the Mormon reformation and his trip through Southern Utah late in the summer of 1857 (he set out the day the Fancher Party arrived in SLC and at least saw, if not conversed with them, at Corn Creek on his return trip) was instrumental in creating the hysterical, paranoid and vengeful atmosphere in which (and on account of) the Mountain Meadows Massacre took place. Shannon Novak, the forensic anthropologist who examined the bones uncovered at the site in 1999, used a phrase from his speech in Parowan as the title her article detailing the investigation: "To Feed A Tree In Zion."*

As Juanita Brooks wrote, "Not only did George A. Smith carry significant orders to both the military and the Indians, but his preaching to the people in general was of such an inflammatory nature that it roused them to a high emotional pitch. Because of this, the fatal relationship between his visit and the massacre which followed scarcely a month later can hardly be overemphasized."

*in an aside after speaking about a local fruit-stealing incident, Smith recommended that the Saints plant their public square with fruit trees. From Brooks, "He reminded them that bones make good fertilizer; a few bones at the roots of a tree would nourish it a long time. Then speaking of the approaching army, he said, "As for the cursed mobocrats, I can think of nothing better that they could do than to feed a fruit tree in Zion."

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:55 pm
by _gramps
Well, he is right about the bones as fertilizer. I had not heard that one before.

Am I right, the Natives gave him that name. I think I will use it on some other boards I visit. I like it!

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:05 pm
by _Blixa
Yes it is quite the colourful moniker, isn't it? I, too prefer his Native American name and often used it in informal conversation.

And of course his "prediction" came true, didn't it? The massacre area has long since, and continues to be today, a site of active farming.

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:44 pm
by _Tal Bachman
Hi Gazelam

It's nice to take a break from combat, as it were, and chill out on a thread like this. The futility of trying to reason with Coggins7 has been kind of draining, to be honest. (What a fool I must be...).

Anyway, care for some lemonade?

Two quick things: I'll post something extensive about the Book of Moses when I get a chance this evening. One thing - I wouldn't say so much that that issue had a "profound effect on my views". That sort of implies that it helped "change my opinions about Mormonism", but its effect was both more and less than that. It was, I think, the very first time I had ever stumbled upon something that, no matter what mind games I tried to play on myself, I couldn't help but take to mean that a canonized item of Mormon doctrine just wasn't true. Tellingly, I was able to play enough of a mind game on myself so that I was able to think of the erroneous claims for (and therefore, erroneous canonization of) the Book of Moses as somehow non-lethal to the rest of Mormonism. So, in that sense, it didn't "change my views".

But...it did set in motion a really rigourous introspection, and a really rigourous re-examination of everything else I had, in my mind, "closed the book on", so to speak. That is, it sparked a process of the most ruthless critical investigation of my own beliefs, and what they were based on. I didn't want to get caught with my pants down on anything again. I wondered if there had been anything else I had not focused on, that I should focus on....?

What I am trying to say, I suppose, is that discovering that Joseph Smith's Book of Moses couldn't be what he claimed it to be, was the catalyst to a process of searching and studying and introspection and thinking hard (and yes, praying) that culminated in a realization, two years later, that I can only describe as beyond nightmarish. I think that the moment I realized I had been wrong about everything most important to me in life, was the single worst moment of my life. And yet, no worse, I suppose than the fully-immersed Moonie, Muslim, or Scientologist discovering the same thing. What can I say? It is a true horror. But fortunately for us, and for everyone who has experienced something similarly traumatic, our bodies and minds begin to try to recuperate very quickly, and it wasn't long before I didn't feel like vomiting every moment, and wasn't bursting into tears all the time.

This is what the process is like. Let us take the example of spousal infidelity, since that is something that would devastate most of us who are married. Imagine that things are humming along well; you've had the odd little concern over the years (did spouse sort of flirt with that waiter/waitress? Does neighbour John/Mary like spouse?, etc.) - but nothing serious, and infidelity doesn't even cross your mind. It never really has.

Then one day, you come across a cell phone text message, or email, that says to your spouse: "had a wonderful time Friday. Can't wait for tomorrow - 6 pm, Holiday Inn, room 63. I'll bring the champagne. Shhh."

How do you feel? What do you do? In a way, you can't imagine how this couldn't be evidence of infidelity, and so you are almost compelled to find out what is going on, all the while hoping against hope there is some innocuous explanation. So, it wasn't that the email "changed your views" as much as it has induced your mind to start focusing, pistons a-charging, on something. You now think about the three or four other times that your spouse's behaviour didn't seem exactly...right...but you brushed them off. Now you can't brush them off anymore. They are now on the table. Your senses, your critical faculties, all are now alert and focused. You cannot help but examine this whole issue with all the critical powers you have. And you, or a PI, will be there at the Holiday Inn the next day...and if you are like most people, your investigation will continue until you have found it is all a big misunderstanding (e.g., turns out it's a surprise party at the Holiday Inn convention room for your spouse's co-worker, and s/he's forgotten to tell you) or that your marriage is not what you thought it was.

To continue the analogy, by the way, imagine that you find that your spouse is having an affair; and then if you talk about it, your spouse's friends, who won't listen seriously to a single thing you might say about the videotape, the letters, etc., all accuse you of "never really having loved Jim/Kathy in the first place" or of "misunderstanding the marriage since I already know that Jim/Kathy would never do that" or of "just wanting out of the marriage", etc. This is what it's like when members, who almost never will sit down and examine things seriously with you, instead just say stuff like, "obviously, you never really had a testimony in the first place" or "I already know that you've gotten something wrong here, since I already know that Joseph Smith always told the truth", or "obviously you just wanted out". The truth is, you were hoping against hope to find that Jim/Kathy was being faithful to you - or that you were right about Mormonism being all it claims - but in the end, you found out it wasn't. But members, hopefully unlike you, are usually too closed to even contemplate that possibility. They are too busy telling themselves that they already know you could not possibly be correct, and then naturally coming up with any and every other explanation to explain your "apostacy". (Of course, I did this myself for years, so I can't really blame anyone else). When we are devout members, we often are cognitively incapable of even contemplating the possibility that Joseph Smith was not a reliable source of information about his experiences. We are closed.

About the spirit versus emotion thing, I think the difficulty you're going to have, if I may say so, is that Mormonism's most authoritative sources explain that the spirit often communicates through our feelings and emotions. I think that very much complicates, at least from a Mormon perspective, the whole question. Here's why.

Knowing whether a feeling was "just a feeling" or "a prompting from the HG", is, by definition, a matter of "knowing". And how do we "know" things, especially things pertaining to "the spirit"? The answer is, through the spirit itself. And how do we know whether it is the spirit motivating our emotions/feelings, or something else?...

Can you begin to see the psychological trap we are in as members? We will go round in circles forever, and often, not even notice it.

I'll get back to you later.

See ya

Tal