DiscussMormonism.com

I got to thinking after I posted in Tarski's thread about the church not being true..

I related an experience I had just before my mo'postasy about how I was called in one sunday to sub for my then five year old daughter's LDS Primary class.

The first part is when they all sit in their respective age groups in a large room:



The children participate in "opening exercises" where they pray, read scriptures out loud, play church related games... etc...

One thing that struck me as very cult like, even back then just before my epiphany, was when the leaders asked kids to come up and hold pictures of both Gordo and Joe.

Then the instructor would have the children repeat something along the lines of:

"I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of god"
"I know that Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet of god and speaks to god to tell us the right things to do. I will follow the counsel of the phophet...."

Other things that these 3-8 year olds are expected to repeat:

"I know that the CoJCoLDS is true"

"I know that the Book of Mormon is true"

Every fast sunday, many of these children will rush up to the stand and litterally parrot off these same rote statements of knowledge. If they struggle, the parents will go up and whisper them in their ear.. HOW can any child KNOW anything about the prophetic abilities of men or if a church is divine?

If an elementary teacher was caught forcing kids to repeat phrases like "I know that George W. Bush is the best president ever", they would be reprimanded.

Is the above practices in LDS Primary considered brainwashing?

in my opinion, it most definitely is brainwashing.

Its an environmentally induced post-hypnotic response that is programmed from the earliest age possible.(brainwashing) This was the primary thing i noticed that caused me to begin my quest for truth.

I actually play the piano for Primary in my Ward, and have worked in the Primary for years in various wards...teaching...in the Primary Presidency...and always heavily involved in the music.

Here are a few of my observations in response to PP's concerns:

PP wrote:One thing that struck me as very cult like, even back then just before my epiphany, was when the leaders asked kids to come up and hold pictures of both Gordo and Joe.

I'm not sure how this is considered "cult-like". They also hold up pictures of Jesus and other things pertaining to the Sharing Time lesson. It's simply a way to get the children involved with what is happening...a very common teaching technique. Obviously, if the lesson is about Joseph Smith or President Hinckley, then yes, these pictures will be utilized. However, most of the lessons in Sharing Time focus on simple principles of the gospel like baptism, acting like Jesus would act, being kind to one another, etc.

PP wrote:Then the instructor would have the children repeat something along the lines of:

"I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of god"
"I know that Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet of god and speaks to god to tell us the right things to do. I will follow the counsel of the phophet...."

Other things that these 3-8 year olds are expected to repeat:

"I know that the CoJCoLDS is true"

"I know that the Book of Mormon is true"

In all of the years I have worked in Primary (and I'm old...43...and I've been playing the piano or involved in primary in some way since I was 15), I have never heard a Primary leader whisper to a child to say "I know the Church is true..." etc. I have heard a parent do it during a talk, etc. but not a leader.

If a parent takes it upon him/herself to have their child parrot things that they believe, then that is their choice.

PP wrote:"I know that the CoJCoLDS is true"

"I know that the Book of Mormon is true"

Every fast sunday, many of these children will rush up to the stand and litterally parrot off these same rote statements of knowledge. If they struggle, the parents will go up and whisper them in their ear.. HOW can any child KNOW anything about the prophetic abilities of men or if a church is divine?

I agree.

However, in my opinion, this is poor parenting choices, rather than Primary organizational choices.

PP wrote:Is the above practices in LDS Primary considered brainwashing?

IF the situation is conducted in the exact format you personally have witnessed, then yes.

However, I can tell you that having been in the Primary, and having been in on how the organization is supposed to function, I can tell you that your Ward Primary was making some serious mistakes.

What you outlined is not what is supposed to happen, and in my experience in being a member of the Church, and working in Primary in three states, Utah, California, and North Carolina, it is the exception, not the rule.

"follow the prophet follow the prophet follow the prophet he knows the way follow the prophet follow the prophet follow the prophet he knows the way"

How is this not brainwashing?

Mercury wrote:"follow the prophet follow the prophet follow the prophet he knows the way follow the prophet follow the prophet follow the prophet he knows the way"

How is this not brainwashing?

First of all, this song is made way too big of a deal about, in my opinion. It's not sung every week. I don't think we have even sung it in Primary in about three months or so.

The tune is based on an old Hebrew melody, and, although it's rather eclectic, and not really my favorite piece, I don't really consider it "culty".

It's always convenient for those who hate the song to quote the chorus and automatically associate it with Joseph Smith, etc. However, if you listen to the verses of the song, it's actually speaking about the ancient prophets.

Here are the complete lyrics to the song:

"Follow the Prophet"
1.Adam was a prophet, first one that we know.
In a place called Eden, he helped things to grow.
Adam served the Lord by following his ways.
We are his descendants in the latter days.
Chorus:
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet; don't go astray.
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet he knows the way.

2. Enoch was a prophet; he taught what was good.
People in his city did just what they should.
When they were so righteous that there was no sin,
Heav'nly Father took them up to live with him.
Chorus

3. Noah was a prophet called to preach the word,
Tried to cry repentance, but nobody heard.
They were busy sinning-Noah preached in vain.
They wished they had listened when they saw the rain.
Chorus

4. Abraham the prophet prayed to have a son,
So the Lord sent Isaac as the chosen one.
Isaac begat Jacob, known as Israel;
Jacob's sons were twelve tribes, so Bible tells.
Chorus

5. Moses was a prophet sent to Israel.
He would lead them to the Promised Land to dwell.
They were slow to follow, or so it appears.
They were in the wilderness for forty years.
Chorus

6. Samuel was a prophet chosen as a boy,
Hannah promised God her son would serve with joy.
In the tabernacle, Samuel heard his name;
He was called by God and answered, "Here I am!"
Chorus

7. Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away.
But he later learned to listen and obey.
When we really try, the Lord won't let us fail:
That's what Jonah learned deep down inside the
whale.
Chorus

8. Daniel was a prophet. He refused to sin;
So the king threw Daniel in the lion's den.
Angels calmed the lions, and the king soon saw
Daniel's pow'r was great, for he obeyed God's law
Chorus

9. Now we have a world where people are confused.
If you don’t believe it, go and watch the news.
We can get direction all along our way,
If we heed the prophets-follow what they say
Chorus

liz3564 wrote:I actually play the piano for Primary in my Ward, and have worked in the Primary for years in various wards...teaching...in the Primary Presidency...and always heavily involved in the music.

Here are a few of my observations in response to PP's concerns:

PP wrote:One thing that struck me as very cult like, even back then just before my epiphany, was when the leaders asked kids to come up and hold pictures of both Gordo and Joe.

I'm not sure how this is considered "cult-like". They also hold up pictures of Jesus and other things pertaining to the Sharing Time lesson. It's simply a way to get the children involved with what is happening...a very common teaching technique. Obviously, if the lesson is about Joseph Smith or President Hinckley, then yes, these pictures will be utilized. However, most of the lessons in Sharing Time focus on simple principles of the gospel like baptism, acting like Jesus would act, being kind to one another, etc..

Try imagining that you are see it for the first time as if you were from mars. Or, try replacing repeated references to Joseph Smith by references to L. Ron Hubbard and see how it strikes you.
These little kids are too young for such repeated indoctinization about cosmic/religious matters of the kind that separates the world into religious sects. They are mentally helplessa and impressionable. I do think it is quite frightening.
It certainly messed up my ability to think about religion with anything like objectivity and it took until I was 30 to come to my own opinions.
I resent that I was subjected to it.

Tarski wrote:Try imagining that you are see it for the fisr time as if you were from mars. Or, try replacing repeated references to Joseph Smith and by reference to L. Ron Hubbard and see how it strikes you.
These little kids are too young for such repeated indoctinization about cosmic/religious matters of the kind that separates the world into religious sects. They are mentally helplessa and impressionable. I do think it is quite frightening.
It certainly messed up my ability to think about religion with anything like objectivity and it took until I was 30 to come to my own opinions.
I resent that I was subjected to it.

I appreciate what you're saying, Tarski, but I think your beef should be with ANY organized religion, and not just the LDS Church.

If you attend a Sunday School class in another Church, the kids are going to participate, and they are going to be taught things about that religion. And you're right. These kids don't have the ability to decipher things for themselves at a young age. That's what their parents are for. The parents have to decide what type of environment to raise their children in. It's also important for the parents to dialogue with kids beyond Sunday School, Primary, school, any type of organization where the kids are out of that parent's immediate care. As a parent, you have a responsibility to be involved in that organization. Come sit in the back of the room, or sit with your child's class. Be involved! If you don't like what's happening, change it, or yank them out.

Sorry for the rant. It's not directed at you. It's directed at parents in general.

If you analyze each individual technique the church employs to impart its "wisdom," by themselves, it can be argued that it isn't necessarily brainwashing. However, when you add up all the things they do together (testimony meeting, avoiding the appearance of evil a.k.a. anti-mormon lit, repeating the same prayers and lessens, scripture chase, etc etc) I don't know how anyone could not view what the church does as a form of brainwashing, or at the very least, hard core indoctrination.

liz3564 wrote:

Mercury wrote:"follow the prophet follow the prophet follow the prophet he knows the way follow the prophet follow the prophet follow the prophet he knows the way"

How is this not brainwashing?

First of all, this song is made way too big of a deal about, in my opinion. It's not sung every week. I don't think we have even sung it in Primary in about three months or so.

The tune is based on an old Hebrew melody, and, although it's rather eclectic, and not really my favorite piece, I don't really consider it "culty".

It's always convenient for those who hate the song to quote the chorus and automatically associate it with Joseph Smith, etc. However, if you listen to the verses of the song, it's actually speaking about the ancient prophets.

Here are the complete lyrics to the song:

..cut...

The lyrics are full of mother goose nonsense and demands for conformity and the relinguishing of ethical, moral and life-meaning decision-making responsibility to a universal leader "the prophet". The more I think about it, the more I hate it!

Yeah, the whole world should just follow the cosmic decrees of one old white dude---riiiiight.

PS, "That's what Jonah learned deep down inside the whale." ???????????

I knooooow my faaatherrrr liiiiives,
And luuuves meeee tooooo...

Follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet,
Don't go astraaaaay...

Now we know that we must also
Witness faith in Jesus’ word,
Be baptized to show obedience,
As was Jesus Christ, our Lord...

Before I take the sacrament, I sit so quietly.
I know that Jesus came to earth and died for me....

I’m glad to pay a tithing, one-tenth of all I earn;
It’s little when I think of all God gives me in return....

Search, ponder, and pray
Are the things that I must do.
The Spirit will guide, and, deep inside,
I’ll know the scriptures are true....

Brainwashing. Pure and simple.