FARMS and the Invention of Evidence

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_Mister Scratch
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FARMS and the Invention of Evidence

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Many followed with much interest the recent thread (which, with over ten thousand views, has proven to be one of the most popular threads of all time on this MB), and the way it exposed the way that certain Mopologists contrived evidence in an effort to smear Tom Murphy. In particular, juliann was guilty of this, and she was abetted with Confidential Informant, Jan, and Calmoriah, among others. On the sidelines, DCP, a.k.a. "FreeThinker", tossed in sarcastic rejoinders and mean witticisms. The old ZLMB thread was important since it marked a key historical moment in online Mormonism: that is, the creation of a safe haven for the Mopologists' dirty tactics.

But this was limited strictly (more or less) to the online, "unofficial" aspects of LDS apologetics. After all, no one from the Maxwell Institute was involved. Neither DCP, nor Hamblin, nor any of the more high-profile, professorial types engaged in the outright invention of evidence that juliann was so obviously guilty of. At least not this time.

It turns out that FARMS, in quite an official capacity, appears to have totally invented a bogus piece of evidence!!! Most here are no doubt aware of the numerous problems facing the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. One of these problems involves the mention of "horses" during the time the Book of Mormon takes place, which is problematic since horses did not appear in the New World until after the arrival of the Spanish. Apologists have taken many approaches to addressing this problem, including the rather absurd suggestion that "horses" actually means "tapirs"---as if Nephite warriors were riding around on the backs of long-snouted, pig like creatures.

Even worse, on the Maxwell Institute's official website "Frequently Asked Questions" section (http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/faq.php ... =questions), we get this peculiar entry:

The Book of Mormon never claims that the horse was universally known or used in the New World. For example, Book of Mormon references to horses suggest that they may have been relatively uncommon, being limited only to certain regions during specific periods of Book of Mormon history. One horse specimen, discovered in Florida, was carbon-dated to about 100 B.C. Other horse remains have been found in precolumbian archaeological contexts in Mesoamerica (at Loltun and Mayapan), but these have not as yet been carbon dated.
(emphasis added)

Intriguing! But how are we to validate this claim? The simple answer is: We can't. It seems there never was a "Florida horse." (Notice that there are no references to any studies, nor mention of a specific site, nor anything else of that nature. Just try searching for mention of this horse in the academic literature---there is nothing. And let's face it, the discovery of a horse that old would be an extraordinarily significant find.)

In the end, the only conclusion one can come to is this: Those responsible for the FARMS entry have invented the evidence. Some on the FAIR/MAD board, notably Tarski, have valiantly endeavored to get a legitimate answer to what are really some very serious questions about what seems to be a very serious breach of academic integrity, but all to no avail.

Naturally, this leads into the question: Who was responsible for putting up this totally contrived bit of nonsense? Was it DCP? Bill Hamblin? Or was this decided upon "by committee," as it were? Where, pray tell, are the remains of this ancient horse? In the First Presidency's "F Vault," perhaps? In the same black hole corner of Bill Hamblin's messy office where the mysterious 2nd Watson Letter supposedly disappeared to? The world may never know. Until then, it seems safe to say that the official, BYU-sanctioned apologists at the Maxwell Evidence are every bit as guilty of inventing evidence as juliann and her posse.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: FARMS and the Invention of Evidence

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

You can strut and preen here, or you can drop a note to the folks at the Maxwell Institute and see what those responsible for this particular item have to say. If you want to choose the latter path, go to "Contact Us," at

http://farms.BYU.edu/

and proceed from there.

One or two people affiliated with FARMS or the Maxwell Institute very rarely look in on MADB, and with the exception of myself, absolutely nobody affiliated with FARMS or the Maxwell Institute pays even the slightest attention to this board. So cavorting around here and boasting about their failure to answer you is really quite silly.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

I just googled and found this: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/ponyexpress/po ... htm#global

I have begun several studies of fossil mammals and carbon isotopes. One of these studies seeks to understand the ancient climate shifts over the past 10 million years in Florida. I analyzed the tooth enamel carbon from over one hundred different fossil herbivores, including gomphotheres, mastodons, mammoths, horses, tapirs, rhinos, peccaries, camels, deer, and bison. These specimens came from 17 different fossil sites ranging from the late Miocene Love Bone Bed (about 10 million years old) to several of the late Pleistocene (probably several tens of thousand years old) river sites from Florida.



Is this where they got their information? Dates wrong? I wonder why they don't yank it down if there's nothing to back it up.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

barrelomonkeys wrote:I just googled and found this: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/ponyexpress/po ... htm#global

I have begun several studies of fossil mammals and carbon isotopes. One of these studies seeks to understand the ancient climate shifts over the past 10 million years in Florida. I analyzed the tooth enamel carbon from over one hundred different fossil herbivores, including gomphotheres, mastodons, mammoths, horses, tapirs, rhinos, peccaries, camels, deer, and bison. These specimens came from 17 different fossil sites ranging from the late Miocene Love Bone Bed (about 10 million years old) to several of the late Pleistocene (probably several tens of thousand years old) river sites from Florida.



Is this where they got their information? Dates wrong? I wonder why they don't yank it down if there's nothing to back it up.


So the horse is there, just a couple of million years too old?
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

harmony wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:I just googled and found this: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/ponyexpress/po ... htm#global

I have begun several studies of fossil mammals and carbon isotopes. One of these studies seeks to understand the ancient climate shifts over the past 10 million years in Florida. I analyzed the tooth enamel carbon from over one hundred different fossil herbivores, including gomphotheres, mastodons, mammoths, horses, tapirs, rhinos, peccaries, camels, deer, and bison. These specimens came from 17 different fossil sites ranging from the late Miocene Love Bone Bed (about 10 million years old) to several of the late Pleistocene (probably several tens of thousand years old) river sites from Florida.



Is this where they got their information? Dates wrong? I wonder why they don't yank it down if there's nothing to back it up.


So the horse is there, just a couple of million years too old?


I hope you're not asking me. I have no idea! :D

I just googled, found it, posted it, and I'll let wiser minds than I decide on the the merits.
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

harmony wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:I just googled and found this: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/ponyexpress/po ... htm#global

I have begun several studies of fossil mammals and carbon isotopes. One of these studies seeks to understand the ancient climate shifts over the past 10 million years in Florida. I analyzed the tooth enamel carbon from over one hundred different fossil herbivores, including gomphotheres, mastodons, mammoths, horses, tapirs, rhinos, peccaries, camels, deer, and bison. These specimens came from 17 different fossil sites ranging from the late Miocene Love Bone Bed (about 10 million years old) to several of the late Pleistocene (probably several tens of thousand years old) river sites from Florida.



Is this where they got their information? Dates wrong? I wonder why they don't yank it down if there's nothing to back it up.


So the horse is there, just a couple of million years too old?


Yes, that's right, Harmony. There *were* ancient horses in the Florida area, but they went extinct some millions of years prior to the events in the Book of Mormon. The tidbit on the FARMS website is a complete fabrication.
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Have you already contacted the folks at the Maxwell Institute office? And they've admitted it?

I'm surprised that they're in the office on a Saturday.

Proverbs 18:13.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: FARMS and the Invention of Evidence

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Daniel Peterson wrote:You can strut and preen here, or you can drop a note to the folks at the Maxwell Institute and see what those responsible for this particular item have to say.


Frankly, given your high status within the Maxwell Institute, and the fact that these are colleagues of yours, I think you are as good as person as any to ask about this obvious fabrication. Will you answer for it? Of course you won't.

If you want to choose the latter path, go to "Contact Us," at

http://farms.BYU.edu/

and proceed from there.


Again, what's the need? As long as this bit of baloney stays up on the website, it only reflects badly on you and your pals.
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Have you already contacted the folks at the Maxwell Institute office? And they've admitted it?

I'm surprised that they're in the office on a Saturday.

Proverbs 18:13.


You know what? Perhaps I will contact them. Who wrote this entry, so I can reach the specific person?
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Mister Scratch wrote:You know what? Perhaps I will contact them. Who wrote this entry, so I can reach the specific person?

I haven't the foggiest idea. Perhaps Matt Roper, but that's just a guess.

I'm not in charge of the website, and had nothing to do with this in any way. But that won't dissuade you from blathering on about collective guilt. What a card you are.

Will this be your new hobbyhorse, now that people seem plainly to be sick to death of your other crusade? Or does this merely represent the opening of a new front?
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