P. John on V. Tech

[_Gadianton]

Free FM no longer exists, at least where I live. Which means, Adam Corolla and Tom Leykis are no longer there to uplift me. Tired music for a while, nah. Now, I'm back to listening to the preachers from Calvary chapel. Entertaining, I'll admit, but unable to really provide any insights on life as Corolla and Leykis.

His morning sermon brought up the V. Tech tragedy. He says, people ask, "Why? Why do people do this?"

His answer was, "Why not?" If all we are is evolved animals, then why not?

Now pastor John is a complete dumb ass. But I admit even normal people have a hard time wrapping their heads around this one. Grounding morals is not an easy. But what people tend not to see is that, whatever problems a godless world has with morals aren't really fixed by adding a God.

First of all, why would we expect if there is a God, that he give us that particular moral? He could have just as easily commanded the rogue student to do what he did. Doesn't he inspire Al Queda to do similar things on a daily basis?

The normative problem for Christians would be to show us what's right and wrong in some kind of interesting way that the non-Christian simply can't do. For instance, they can appeal to their intuitions, and say those are God inspired, but the atheist can say they have the same intuitions built by evolution. And the atheists position is superier since he can give realistic accounts of why those intuitions would evolve - cooperative game theory etc..The Christian can turn to scripture, but how many Christians can make a list of 50 or 60 tough ethical questions and genuinely find a clear answer to each that with little dispute, their particular sect would back up? Remember Mormons, as FAIR tells us, Mormonism doesn't have any systematic theology. So your case is about as bad as it possibly could get for defining morals.

The metaethical problem would be to take up how any ethics can be justified. But I don't think we even need to press this issue if Christians can't even make good on explaining, or at least listing in a consistent way, the stuff God has told us to do.

[_Sethbag]

The problem with Mormonism's (and a lot of other religions too) claims on some kind of absolute ethics from God is that Mormons believe that God can, and sometimes does, command things seemingly contrary to his own previous guidance, for reasons that don't have to make any sense. Recall Joseph Smith's letter to Nancy Rigdon where he told her that things that seem wrong are sometimes right. Consider the Old Testament, where God supposedly commands the forces of Israel to slaughter other people down to the last infant and pet cat. Consider Nephi being told by the voices in his head that it was alright to take a sword and cut off a passed-out drunk guy's head who was lying in the gutter, so that he could go into the guy's house and take some of his property. Consider Joseph Smith taking other mens' wives to be his own wives. Consider the idolization of Abraham for his willingness to take his own son, bind him on an altar on top of a pile of wood, slaughter him with a knife, and then burn his body, all because he perceived somehow that God wanted him to do it.

So where again is this absolute God-derived set of morals and ethics? There isn't one. The only absolute is to do whatever God tells you to do at any given time, and unfortunately for the world, God's will at any given time seems to be primarily channeled through other human beings who tell us what to do in the name of God, often in blatantly self-serving manner (surprise surprise).

To all reading this, pretend that you are an atheist, and don't believe in God. Walk outside, and see the first person you run into. Will you kill them? Why not? Is the only reason you don't kill the first person you see on the street because you think God will see you do it, and be displeased? Because if you do you won't get into heaven? Or is there some other reason you don't kill the first person you see? Atheists have morals and ethics which they don't believe came from God. Very few atheists really will go kill the first person they see on the street, and for every such atheist person who would, I suggest that there is a Dan Lafferty on the religious side who will do the exact same thing, claiming that God told him to.

[_truth dancer]

His answer was, "Why not?" If all we are is evolved animals, then why not?

As if animals randomly kill each other for no reason. :-(

~dancer~

[_Gazelam]

As if animals randomly kill each other for no reason. :-(