DiscussMormonism.com

I mean, to be wrong about your religion, but not realize that you're wrong. In other words, how does it feel to believe that your religion is true, but in fact be wrong about that?

What does it feel like to be a Jehovah's Witness who thinks that the JWs are in fact God's one and only true church on earth? They don't know that they're wrong. In fact, they believe, or even know in their heart of hearts, that they're right, and the rest of the world is wrong.

So what does that feel like?

JWs have families. They have a very strong, close-knit society. They come together in fellowship and worship and study and other meetings several times per week. They feel like brothers and sisters with their fellow members. They feel acceptance, and they by and large (from the ones I've talked to) enjoy it. Life is good being on Jehovah's home team. They have jobs, they wake up in the morning and go to work. They spend money on things they like. They enjoy time spent with their families, and eating food, and doing all kinds of things, just like most people. And they know their church is true.

And yet their wrong.

Can't they feel that? Why not? What does it feel like to be strongly convinced by, and happy in, a church which you think is God's one and only true church, and yet be completely and totally wrong about this?

My impression, from my interactions with JWs, is that it feels totally normal.

Can anyone wonder, then, why it's so hard to knock a diehard JW out of their comfort zone and get them to seriously consider that their church might not be true? It feels perfectly normal and obvious to them that their church is true. It not being true is something that they cannot even wrap their heads around. It is a proposition which simply makes no sense to them, and is patently, and obviously false.

How does this relate to Mormonism? Do I really have to spell this out? It's related to Mormonism because Mormons are in the exact same kind of situation as the JWs are. Being a Mormon, all warm and cozy in Mormonville, living the active Mormon lifestyle, in a community of other Mormons, feels perfectly normal (if you've been raised that way). When I grew up, I went to seminary every morning before school. There was really no serious consideration of not doing seminary. Of course I would do seminary, because that's perfectly normal, and expected, for kids in the church. Other than MIT, which I didn't think I'd get accepted to due to bad grades (and didn't), I only applied to BYU, because of course I'd go to BYU. Who wouldn't want to go to BYU, when BYU is so awesome? It felt perfectly normal, and I was happy, going to BYU as a Freshman, then going to the MTC and serving a mission. I looked forward to each of these things. It was normal, it felt good, it was the way things are in the church.

It didn't feel like the Mormon church is in fact wrong.

Well of course it didn't. That's because the Mormon Church today is made up of several million active Mormons who are trying hard to make their lives happy, productive, and so forth. Mormons find ways of enjoying themselves, enjoying fellowship with other Mormons, doing the "Mormon thing" and all that that entails. It's perfectly normal, and feels perfectly normal, and is what they're accustomed to, and expect.

It doesn't feel like it's wrong. But it is.

So many Mormons, I think, feel like the very possibility that the LDS church might not in fact be true, is just shocking, and completely impossible. There's simply no way that it isn't true.

If you're in this camp, then please read the following carefully, and try to wrap your mind around it:

It's exactly this way for believing Jehovah's Witnesses too, and you know that they're wrong anyway.

You need to consider seriously the possibility that your situation might be, really, about the same as theirs, and that the impossibility of the LDS church's being wrong is really just about the same thing to, as the impossibility of the JWs not being true is to them.

Apparently, it can feel perfectly normal, even desirable, and happy, and advantageous, to belong to a church and believe that it actually is true, even when it really isn't true.

I'm going to say this again.

Apparently, it can feel perfectly normal, even desirable, and happy, and advantageous, to belong to a church and believe that it actually is true, even when it really isn't true.

This is demonstrably true, as the case with the true believing Jehovah's Witnesses shows.

Each person should really be able to humble themselves to the point where they can face this fact, and take seriously the possibility that their own beliefs, as impossible as it might at first seem, aren't really true after all, just like for others it's impossible to them for their beliefs not to be true, and yet they aren't true.

This isn't an easy humility, and honesty, to have, or to develop, and to allow oneself to experience. To do so opens up the shells that we build in our minds to protect our own cherished identities, and exposes the raw, fleshy underbellies of our minds and personalities and psyches to real, honest, raw truth. And that can be very hard to handle, and certainly isn't very comfortable, much less so the thicker these mental shells have become over time and endless reinforcement.

What I always find interesting is that the apologists and other LDS like to think they are just like any other Church that claims to be true, but there is a subtle difference. Mormons feel they are elite in a sense I have never felt as a Baptist or Catholic. Mormons are the only true Church, which means everyone else is "wrong" about their religion. It is also a New Religious Movement which many people grasp onto for psychological and sociological purposes. It gives people a sense of purpose and good feeling, without any concern for whether or not its truth claims are true. This is a recipe for arrogance and confirmation bias. This elite status is what sets them apart from other faiths. Therefore, there can be nothing "wrong" about Mormonism or else it is just like the rest. Whenever flaws are pointed out in the Church, the usual rationalization kicks in. You know, things like "the Church is still perfect even if the people aren't."

It took me a while to realize how dumb this comment really is because the membership = the Church. The Church is only as perfect as those who comprise it.

Seth,

This is an excellent post, a slightly different way to approach the issue. Have you considered posting it on MAD? I'm curious as to how believers will respond.

And yes, it does take a great deal of humility to get to the point where you are able to admit that you may be wrong about your most cherished, valued belief. This is why it amazes me when believers say people often fall away from the church due to pride. It's the opposite of pride, actually. It's the ridding of the hubris that allows one to believe that God has spoken to him/her in a way so much clearer than God speaks to people of other religions that, despite the millions who believe their church is the one correct path to god, he/she knows that the Mormon church really is that one true path.

I love your post, Sethbag!

Like Beastie, I hope you post it on MAD. Believers need to read this.

Thanks for the excellent post.

KA

dartagnan wrote:What I always find interesting is that the apologists and other LDS like to think they are just like any other Church that claims to be true, but there is a subtle difference. Mormons feel they are elite in a sense I have never felt as a Baptist or Catholic. Mormons are the only true Church, which means everyone else is "wrong" about their religion. It is also a New Religious Movement which many people grasp onto for psychological and sociological purposes. It gives people a sense of purpose and good feeling, without any concern for whether or not its truth claims are true. This is a recipe for arrogance and confirmation bias. This elite status is what sets them apart from other faiths. Therefore, there can be nothing "wrong" about Mormonism or else it is just like the rest. Whenever flaws are pointed out in the Church, the usual rationalization kicks in. You know, things like "the Church is still perfect even if the people aren't."

It took me a while to realize how dumb this comment really is because the membership = the Church. The Church is only as perfect as those who comprise it.

Don't Catholics believe they are the one true church with the priesthood and the Vicar of Christ? Didn't the pope just emphasize this? Don't baptists believe they have the truth? Oh sure other True Christians can be found in other places but you have to be Christian-then you are saved, a child of God, and only then. The rest are toast. Why would this not generate just as much elitism as is found in the LDS idea of being the true church?

beastie wrote:Seth,

This is an excellent post, a slightly different way to approach the issue. Have you considered posting it on MAD? I'm curious as to how believers will respond.

And yes, it does take a great deal of humility to get to the point where you are able to admit that you may be wrong about your most cherished, valued belief. This is why it amazes me when believers say people often fall away from the church due to pride. It's the opposite of pride, actually. It's the ridding of the hubris that allows one to believe that God has spoken to him/her in a way so much clearer than God speaks to people of other religions that, despite the millions who believe their church is the one correct path to god, he/she knows that the Mormon church really is that one true path.

What is evidence of greater pride; conceding that one is wrong, or refusing to consider the possibility that one is wrong? I find the "pride" accusation laughably silly.

When accused of arrogance by my siblings, my standard response is, "Which of us claims that the other will be punished for eternity for not believing as he does?"

What could be more arrogant than actually believing that people who hold different beliefs than ourselves will be eternally punished for it?

Jason Bourne wrote:

dartagnan wrote:What I always find interesting is that the apologists and other LDS like to think they are just like any other Church that claims to be true, but there is a subtle difference. Mormons feel they are elite in a sense I have never felt as a Baptist or Catholic. Mormons are the only true Church, which means everyone else is "wrong" about their religion. It is also a New Religious Movement which many people grasp onto for psychological and sociological purposes. It gives people a sense of purpose and good feeling, without any concern for whether or not its truth claims are true. This is a recipe for arrogance and confirmation bias. This elite status is what sets them apart from other faiths. Therefore, there can be nothing "wrong" about Mormonism or else it is just like the rest. Whenever flaws are pointed out in the Church, the usual rationalization kicks in. You know, things like "the Church is still perfect even if the people aren't."

It took me a while to realize how dumb this comment really is because the membership = the Church. The Church is only as perfect as those who comprise it.

Don't Catholics believe they are the one true church with the priesthood and the Vicar of Christ? Didn't the pope just emphasize this? Don't baptists believe they have the truth? Oh sure other True Christians can be found in other places but you have to be Christian-then you are saved, a child of God, and only then. The rest are toast. Why would this not generate just as much elitism as is found in the LDS idea of being the true church?

I think the difference, Jason, is that, with the exception of the Catholic church, most other churches I've been in, from Lutheran, to Methodist, to Disciples of Christ (which I am now), all seem accepting as long as you have a belief in Christ. None that I've experienced indicated that I had to join their church to be saved.

I am a bit confused over your statement that you have to be a Christian? Isn't that the point of going to a Christian church? I mean, you probably wouldn't go if you weren't one, right?

It is my understanding, and belief, that all those who believe in Christ are part of His church, not just any specific denomination.

guy sajer wrote:

beastie wrote:Seth,

This is an excellent post, a slightly different way to approach the issue. Have you considered posting it on MAD? I'm curious as to how believers will respond.

And yes, it does take a great deal of humility to get to the point where you are able to admit that you may be wrong about your most cherished, valued belief. This is why it amazes me when believers say people often fall away from the church due to pride. It's the opposite of pride, actually. It's the ridding of the hubris that allows one to believe that God has spoken to him/her in a way so much clearer than God speaks to people of other religions that, despite the millions who believe their church is the one correct path to god, he/she knows that the Mormon church really is that one true path.

What is evidence of greater pride; conceding that one is wrong, or refusing to consider the possibility that one is wrong? I find the "pride" accusation laughably silly.

When accused of arrogance by my siblings, my standard response is, "Which of us claims that the other will be punished for eternity for not believing as he does?"

What could be more arrogant than actually believing that people who hold different beliefs than ourselves will be eternally punished for it?

It's nice to see you, Guy Sajer. You still look as handsome as ever there in that avatar of yours, which is not at all a photo of Jeremy Irons, but instead a photo of you. ;)

I, too, am accused of pride and arrogance, not only by my Mormon family members, but also by my Evangelical Christian husband. The Mormons and Christians in my family do not accuse one another of arrogance, yet they all hurl that label at me. It's arrogance and pride that keep me from believing Mormonism. It's arrogance and pride that keep me from believing the Bible is the inerrant word of God. No matter what I cannot believe, it's arrogance that keeps me from believing it.

Some of the people in my family who believe I'm going to either hell or outer darkness seem almost gleeful at the thought of me, haughty, prideful, and arrogant Kimberly Ann, suffering eternally while they sit back in their eternal glory thinking "I told her so!"

I cannot understand it. But I suppose that's because of my pride and arrogance, too.

KA

ozemc wrote:

Jason Bourne wrote:

dartagnan wrote:What I always find interesting is that the apologists and other LDS like to think they are just like any other Church that claims to be true, but there is a subtle difference. Mormons feel they are elite in a sense I have never felt as a Baptist or Catholic. Mormons are the only true Church, which means everyone else is "wrong" about their religion. It is also a New Religious Movement which many people grasp onto for psychological and sociological purposes. It gives people a sense of purpose and good feeling, without any concern for whether or not its truth claims are true. This is a recipe for arrogance and confirmation bias. This elite status is what sets them apart from other faiths. Therefore, there can be nothing "wrong" about Mormonism or else it is just like the rest. Whenever flaws are pointed out in the Church, the usual rationalization kicks in. You know, things like "the Church is still perfect even if the people aren't."

It took me a while to realize how dumb this comment really is because the membership = the Church. The Church is only as perfect as those who comprise it.

Don't Catholics believe they are the one true church with the priesthood and the Vicar of Christ? Didn't the pope just emphasize this? Don't baptists believe they have the truth? Oh sure other True Christians can be found in other places but you have to be Christian-then you are saved, a child of God, and only then. The rest are toast. Why would this not generate just as much elitism as is found in the LDS idea of being the true church?

I think the difference, Jason, is that, with the exception of the Catholic church, most other churches I've been in, from Lutheran, to Methodist, to Disciples of Christ (which I am now), all seem accepting as long as you have a belief in Christ. None that I've experienced indicated that I had to join their church to be saved.

I am a bit confused over your statement that you have to be a Christian? Isn't that the point of going to a Christian church? I mean, you probably wouldn't go if you weren't one, right?

It is my understanding, and belief, that all those who believe in Christ are part of His church, not just any specific denomination.

A "saved" Christian believes they have preferential standing before God, are his children and others are not will be in heaven, will judge the non Christians along with the apostles, others will be in Hell. THis is quite elitist.

ozemc wrote:

Jason Bourne wrote:

dartagnan wrote:What I always find interesting is that the apologists and other LDS like to think they are just like any other Church that claims to be true, but there is a subtle difference. Mormons feel they are elite in a sense I have never felt as a Baptist or Catholic. Mormons are the only true Church, which means everyone else is "wrong" about their religion. It is also a New Religious Movement which many people grasp onto for psychological and sociological purposes. It gives people a sense of purpose and good feeling, without any concern for whether or not its truth claims are true. This is a recipe for arrogance and confirmation bias. This elite status is what sets them apart from other faiths. Therefore, there can be nothing "wrong" about Mormonism or else it is just like the rest. Whenever flaws are pointed out in the Church, the usual rationalization kicks in. You know, things like "the Church is still perfect even if the people aren't."

It took me a while to realize how dumb this comment really is because the membership = the Church. The Church is only as perfect as those who comprise it.

Don't Catholics believe they are the one true church with the priesthood and the Vicar of Christ? Didn't the pope just emphasize this? Don't baptists believe they have the truth? Oh sure other True Christians can be found in other places but you have to be Christian-then you are saved, a child of God, and only then. The rest are toast. Why would this not generate just as much elitism as is found in the LDS idea of being the true church?

I think the difference, Jason, is that, with the exception of the Catholic church, most other churches I've been in, from Lutheran, to Methodist, to Disciples of Christ (which I am now), all seem accepting as long as you have a belief in Christ. None that I've experienced indicated that I had to join their church to be saved.

I am a bit confused over your statement that you have to be a Christian? Isn't that the point of going to a Christian church? I mean, you probably wouldn't go if you weren't one, right?

It is my understanding, and belief, that all those who believe in Christ are part of His church, not just any specific denomination.

I don't see the situation for a person thinking of himself or herself as Christain as changing the point made by Seth.
Just replace Mormon by Christian and JW's by Muslim. Then read it again with a few obvious and minor changes.

The point is that with religion, one finds oneself immersed in a situation where considering that one's belief system is not valid is impossible except in some abstract and formal way. If the question were a scientific one, then one would not fear reading opposing views and contrary evidence.
But with religion, this is implicitly or explicitly verboten.
For example, someone on this board just told me that thier spouse would not even touch a book that challenged biblical fundamentalism.