DiscussMormonism.com

Screw it, I know I said I was off to bed after that last thread I started, but I was thinking about it further as I went to bed, and I couldn't sleep after I thought of this analogy while lying in bed.

When a person has crooked teeth, they can wear braces. The bone that teeth are mounted in is relatively soft and spongy, as bone goes, and the constant application of pressure on the teeth is able to literally push the teeth around, with the bone accomodating this movement, until the teeth are in the desired orientation and position.

When a person has their braces taken off, they are fitted with a retainer, which they are instructed to wear more or less forever after (not that anyone really does wear it literally for the rest of their life). If they don't wear this retainer, at some point the teeth will slowly drift away from their new locations. Since it is desirable for the teeth not to drift away, since the new location of the teeth was considered desirable, this retainer will literally hold the teeth in place.

Now, what's the analogy?

It's the mental "retainer" of constant scripture-reading, temple attendance, testimony bearing, etc. It has been my experience, and I can bet that most of you fellow apostates can say the same, that almost every TBM I've spoken with about my change in beliefs has asked the question "Have you been reading your scriptures regularly? Have you been praying regularly? When was the last time you went to the temple?" I was most recently asked these same exact questions by an Army buddy of mine from my days in the Utah National Guard, who is a faithful LDS. He came to visit us for a weekend while he was in state for some training, and when I told him of my unbelief, he immediately asked me when was the last time I'd been to the temple, if I've been reading the scriptures, etc.

The implication of such question is always that I've put myself at risk of "losing" my testimony by not constantly immersing my mind in testimony-strengthening materials, and that this is a very unfortunate thing.

It's just like when you go to the orthodontist for a followup visit sometime after you get your braces off, and the dentist has noticed a bit of drift of your teeth, and asks you "have you been wearing your retainer?"

Constant immersion in scriptures, constant prayer, constant demand for one's attention to church activities/callings, regular temple attendance, etc. are all intended keep one's mind exactly where the church wants it, and prevent it from drifting off on its own. They are the mental retainer designed, whether on purpose or unwittingly, to make sure the "proper" attitude is maintained toward the church, toward Joseph Smith, etc.

Why is testimony meeting so important? Is it just a relic of Mormon history, not done away with because we're coasting now, and the Lord hasn't ever told anyone to change it, so we're just maintaining the status quo? Another question is, then, why was it ever necessary. If it's true, as some GA who I forget now is purported to have said, that the development of a testimony comes through the bearing of it, then in reality the constant repetition of statements of belief and allegiance in the church/prophet/Book of Mormon, etc. really are, in fact, designed to mould one's thinking, and hold one to thinking that way. It is part of the mental retainer the church wants its members to wear for their entire lives.

A good question is, what would happen if we didn't have Testimony meeting? Would more people fall away, as their testimonies aren't keep strong and healthy because of the lack of this constant reminder and repetition? If this is true, then shouldn't the need for such constant repetition of testimony in order to keep our testimonies shored up against unbelief be a troubling sign? Why should something true require quasi-mind control techniques to remain believed/believable by the target audience? There's an underlying warning signal here just screaming to be noticed, and yet so few seem ever to do it.

Again, what happens if someone doesn't constantly immerse their mind in repetition of scripture through daily, or at least, often reading? Is it true that if one stops regularly reading the scriptures, one has trouble maintaining a strong belief in their Truth? Shouldn't the fact that the scriptures require constant immersion in them to remain plausible and believable to many people actually be a red flag? TBMs take it for granted that folks who don't regularly read the scriptures are at risk of "falling away". Could it not be said that those who don't regularly read the scriptures are in fact at risk of drifting out of this forced mental alignment that has been imposed on their minds by this mental "retainer" of constant immersion?

In what field of science must scientists constantly, or at least often, publicly proclaim allegiance and belief, or risk losing their "belief" in that science and "falling away" from science?
In what field of science must scientists constantly, or at least often, immerse themselves in reading the foundational papers and works explaining and proving their theories and principles, or risk "falling away" from belief in these principles?

What physicist needs to constantly, or at least often, spend time reading Einstein's papers about Relativity or risk stopping believing in Relativity? Can you imagine a young PhD post-doc in Physics approaching one of the older, tenured professors at some university, and saying he was beginning to have some trouble believing in Relativity, and having the professor ask him, earnestly, "when was the last time you read the Einstein papers on Relativity", with the implication that if it had been "too long" since this had happened, that the young PhD physicist was endangering his scientific beliefs?

Choose any science, or field of engineering, or really, almost any human knowledge area or pursuit you care to mention, and ask yourself, in which of these fields is it necessary for those trained in (and presumably who "believe" in) these fields to constantly immerse themselves in the written works and treatises underpinning these fields, or risk having their knowledge and "belief" in these principles undermined by other ideas?

I need to develop the concept of a spiritual, mental "retainer" further, and be able to pull it out and discuss it when I'm asked by TBMs who learn of my transition to unbelief in the LDS church, and immediately start asking if I've been wearing my mental retainer, I mean reading my scriptures and praying lately. I think the analogy is a good one, and holds in so many ways.

Have you ever thought about starting a blog....reason being that you produce alot of good thoughts and cataloguing them somehow might be useful....

Bond...James Bond wrote:Have you ever thought about starting a blog....reason being that you produce alot of good thoughts and cataloguing them somehow might be useful....

I agree with Bond. I read what you write and rarely have anything to add or respond and hate to see your posts drift off the page. A blog would be nice for any interested to access some of your musings.

I think the retainer analogy is a good one.

I hope you were able to get some sleep, Seth, but I'd be lying if I said your insomnia didn't benefit us all! You've written a fantastic post. Again.

In my case, my retainer didn't keep my teeth from shifting position. I was reading my scriptures, paying tithing, attending the temple, fulfilling my calling and even rotating my food storage when I lost my testimony. In fact, as my testimony started to slip, I tried even harder to keep it by being even more faithful in wearing my retainer, but it was to no avail. I went from full activity to complete apostasy in one day, or so it seemed to everyone. But for months I'd been furiously wearing my retainer as my teeth nevertheless slipped further from their usual arrangement.

Interestingly, my retainer was holding my teeth in improper alignment all along. The usual arrangement of my teeth wasn't really straight, I just thought it was. Somehow, in spite of everything I did to keep them confusedly crooked, my teeth straightened out anyway and now I smile a lot more than I used to.

KA

Seth, I would say the difference between the Physicist who goes back to Einstein and the LDS who goes back to the Scriptures stems from the difference in what they're doing.

The LDS person has a reason to want to disbelieve. Accepting the principles of the Gospel can be grueling. You HAVE to keep progressing and moving on to new knowledge and new insights and seeking out the revelation and gifts necessary to get where you want to be. Plus if God is an active influence he is also making demands on your time and energy. Unless that energy is replenished by seeking out God you will either become a miserable LDS martyr who spends their days wondering why blessings aren't pouring down on them because they suffer so much or you'll leave. Off the top of my head I can think of about 20 people I know of and were friends with that left the Church. All of them were exhausted by the demands of the Gospel after a period of not doing the simple things they needed to do to keep blessings flowing. Only two now trumpet historical reasons for leaving the Church. Both of them didn't find those reasons until they were less-active for at least 3 months.

The Physicist is not in the same boat. He is learning a fact that demands nothing and may aid him. Now if the physicist was bound and determined to discover the unified theory of everything he should be reading vociferously and keeping up with all experimentation and experimenting himself until he reaches the goal. If he fails to do this he may not lose his belief in relativity but he will probably lose his faith in his goal and become discouraged.

I had a similar thought as this that I posted on MADB.

Many people say that when you feel the spirit, it is so much more than a good feeling. Well, those that feel true, clinical depression say it is so much more than feeling sad. And those that feel true rage say it is so much more than anger. I know that many of us have stated that we have not felt this spirit in the way these guys claim it should be felt. I have never felt depression or rage the way that others have felt it either. So, if some are genetically predisposed to feel depression and anger at such intense levels, why can't others be genetically pre-programmed to feel this "good feeling" so much more intensely than most normal people do?

Now, often times there may be catalysts for these. For depression, it may be a sad song, or a familiar smell. For rage, it may be being in someones presence or the color red. Often times, people go to counselling to learn to either avoid these catalysts, or learn to control the emotions that these produce.

Why couldn't the same be true for feeling the spirit? Couldn't reading the scriptures, saying prayers, etc be a catalyst for "feeling the spirit"? If you stopped doing this, it would make sense that you would stop feeling it. The same would hold true that if the depressed person stopped listening to songs, or avoided those smells, the catalyst wouldn't be there to cause the depression.

Sethbag wrote:A good question is, what would happen if we didn't have Testimony meeting? Would more people fall away, as their testimonies aren't keep strong and healthy because of the lack of this constant reminder and repetition? If this is true, then shouldn't the need for such constant repetition of testimony in order to keep our testimonies shored up against unbelief be a troubling sign? Why should something true require quasi-mind control techniques to remain believed/believable by the target audience? There's an underlying warning signal here just screaming to be noticed, and yet so few seem ever to do it.

Again, what happens if someone doesn't constantly immerse their mind in repetition of scripture through daily, or at least, often reading? Is it true that if one stops regularly reading the scriptures, one has trouble maintaining a strong belief in their Truth? Shouldn't the fact that the scriptures require constant immersion in them to remain plausible and believable to many people actually be a red flag? TBMs take it for granted that folks who don't regularly read the scriptures are at risk of "falling away". Could it not be said that those who don't regularly read the scriptures are in fact at risk of drifting out of this forced mental alignment that has been imposed on their minds by this mental "retainer" of constant immersion?

One thing you seem to be forgetting. LDS believe that Satan and his minions, as real live entities, are constantly chipping away at the testimonies of the faithful. The armor of God must be repaired daily lest Satan penetrate it and send you down the slippery slope to apostasy. Add that in with the natural man being an enemy of God and you have created a need to reaffirm testimonies.

The Nehor wrote:The LDS person has a reason to want to disbelieve. ...

The Physicist is not in the same boat. He is learning a fact that demands nothing and may aid him. Now if the physicist was bound and determined to discover the unified theory of everything he should be reading vociferously and keeping up with all experimentation and experimenting himself until he reaches the goal. If he fails to do this he may not lose his belief in relativity but he will probably lose his faith in his goal and become discouraged.

Pardon me, but this doesn't jive with the experience of a lot of us. The fact is, many of us wanted to believe way more than we wanted to disbelieve. With the family pressures, the social pressure, the concept of going to the Celestial Kingdom and becoming a god, or becoming worm food (tough choice, eh?) there were a zillion reasons to want it all to be true. What were the reasons for wanting it not to be true? So I could save 10% of my money? So I could have a few beers or drink tea or something? You almost sound like the typical TBM here, giving the knee-jerk "he just wanted to sin" reason for why I stopped believing.

Kimberly Ann, the reason your mental retainer didn't work is because, to keep the analogy going, you fell and slammed your teeth into the curb, and no retainer will reverse the effects of that. :-)

Yeah, the retainer doesn't always end up succeeding, but my point is, keeping our minds in line is what it's for, and it actually does work on a lot of people, to a very great degree. And the expectation is that it works, and that's the expecation of the TBMs, hence them seemingly always asking, as soon as they find out you don't believe anymore, if you've been reading the scriptures, going to the temple, etc. They assume that you probably haven't, and that that's the reason why you've lost your belief. They assume that not doing those things regularly puts you at risk for losing your testimony. They're probably right, and my point is that that ought to be a giant red flag, and yet that's completely lost on the TBMs.

Scottie wrote:One thing you seem to be forgetting. LDS believe that Satan and his minions, as real live entities, are constantly chipping away at the testimonies of the faithful. The armor of God must be repaired daily lest Satan penetrate it and send you down the slippery slope to apostasy. Add that in with the natural man being an enemy of God and you have created a need to reaffirm testimonies.

Yeah, LDS believe that, but couldn't these explanations just be rationalizations for why there's this constant need for Gospel immersion in order for it to remain plausible? That is, the observation is made that constant immersion is required. This demands some kind of explanation, because it really ought not to be the case, as my physicist examples helps show. Yet the need for Gospel immersion is really there, and needs an explanation. So they come up with the "well, Satan did it!" explanation. This satisfies the need for an explanation, and supports the Church belief at the same time. Simultaneously, it acts to scare people who may be wavering in wearing their mental retainer, to keep doing it/start doing it again, because after all, one wouldn't want to subject oneself to Satan, wouldn't one?

Sethbag wrote:Kimberly Ann, the reason your mental retainer didn't work is because, to keep the analogy going, you fell and slammed your teeth into the curb, and no retainer will reverse the effects of that. :-)

Yeah, the retainer doesn't always end up succeeding, but my point is, keeping our minds in line is what it's for, and it actually does work on a lot of people, to a very great degree. And the expectation is that it works, and that's the expecation of the TBMs, hence them seemingly always asking, as soon as they find out you don't believe anymore, if you've been reading the scriptures, going to the temple, etc. They assume that you probably haven't, and that that's the reason why you've lost your belief. They assume that not doing those things regularly puts you at risk for losing your testimony. They're probably right, and my point is that that ought to be a giant red flag, and yet that's completely lost on the TBMs.

Yes, once I slammed my teeth into the curb there was no going back!

And of course you're right, Seth, the mental retainer of Mormonism is conditioning, and constant doses of it are necessary to keep people believing the unbelievable. Not to keep up the conditioning is a sin and we all know people leave the Mormon church because they love sin. ;)

KA