Politics, The Chosen Land, and Why we Fight

[_truth dancer]

I recently watched, Why we Fight, (thank you Beastie), and a few other documentaries about war and the United States, and I got to thinking.

It seems to me like America (The United States), is not really the Chosen Land it was/is supposed to be.

Do the leaders of the church still think America is a great nation, directed by Godad He inspired its leaders? Or, do they think it may be about ready to fall? (Where the constitution will hang by a thread and the Priesthood will save it)?

What do you all think about the current state of affairs... has democracy lost to capitalism?

Are the wealthy few, running the country?

Along these lines, I also reread an article by Nibley, Breakthroughs I Would Like to See, where he argues that the church must return to the Law of Consecration in order to prepare for Zion. He uses the D&C to support his understanding that this law is required by all Saints.

in my opinion, the church seems to be continually moving toward more power, money, eliticism, wealth, etc. etc. etc. My observation is that there is a move away from the idea of communal living. Is the Law of Consecration no longer taught as something that will exist? Is Nibley's interpretation of the D&C wrong?

Any thoughts?

~dancer~

[_The Nehor]

Nibley was a rare voice. He was also right. I expect the Church to schism in the near future. The parable of the wheat and tares is about the Church, not the whole world. Here's hoping I'm not a tare.

Promised lands are funny things. Historically they get lots of nations destroyed and conquered. The Promised Land thing is a two-edged sword. When the pre-millenial purges begin the United States is in trouble and the LDS not living the gospel in the worst trouble of all.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Nehor...

I'm obviously not a believer in the D&C ...

But, in principle, I do believe more the teachings of Jesus, which in my opinion speak of a world of equality, peace, unity.

I've actually read about some fabulous "intentional communities" that are rather lovely!

Just for fun (smile), I would love to hear your thoughts on the possible separation that may occur, if you would care to elaborate a tad? ;-)

~dancer~

[_Coggins7]

What do you all think about the current state of affairs... has democracy lost to capitalism?

Are the wealthy few, running the country?

Along these lines, I also reread an article by Nibley, Breakthroughs I Would Like to See, where he argues that the church must return to the Law of Consecration in order to prepare for Zion. He uses the D&C to support his understanding that this law is required by all Saints.

in my opinion, the church seems to be continually moving toward more power, money, eliticism, wealth, etc. etc. etc. My observation is that there is a move away from the idea of communal living. Is the Law of Consecration no longer taught as something that will exist? Is Nibley's interpretation of the D&C wrong?

Any thoughts?

1. We do not live in a democracy. If we did, however, it is far more likely that Capitalism would be destroyed by democracy than the other way around.

2. Capitalism is liberty in the economic sphere; it is economic freedom. The general term for this is property rights, and they are of the unalienable sort. Without them, the rest of the rights in the Constitution are utterly moot.

3. Nibley was an economic illiterate who's views of the possibilities of human social organization were quite naïve, although he was brilliant in his sphere of expertise. The question is, of course, what do we mean when we say "law of consecration"? What do we mean by "communal living" and do we really understand what we're getting into when we pine away for it?

There is an inviolable and unequivocal tension between the collective and the individual and always will be until all men are angels. Until that time, "communal" living, without the deep, direct, and unfettered oversight of the Holy Spirit will end where all such experiments have always ended, in failure or human disaster. To the extent the original United Order worked, it worked to the extent free agency and property were respected.

However, that situation was a situation of naked survival in an unforgiving desert that had to be built up and made productive. There is no reason to believe that the United Order practiced then was in any manner fully revealed, or that it was revealed in a manner consistent with how it might be revealed if brought back into practice at the present time.

[_ajax18]

When the pre-millenial purges begin the United States is in trouble and the LDS not living the gospel in the worst trouble of all.

I assume you mean spiritually, or is God going to actually be fair from an earthly perspective rather than random as He is now. Then you can get on board with the new "saved by grace" LDS doctrine and say, "You know the SOBs in power, were made that way by their upbringing and even though they weren't very good people, they did there very best so they'll be just as well off in the next life as those who they made suffer." After all it's not really about what type of person you became, but whether some bishop or society decides that you're trying very hard or not.

The statement above seems to be nothing more than a classic fear and control statement. LDS not living the gospel are the worst off. What about the people who rejected it from the start, never even considered trying to live right? What's so much better about that than the person who exerts himself for a time and then burns out? In my judgment this isn't fair and it simply doesn't add up. Yet the people making these statements don't really care about fairness and whether it adds up. They're really only interested in intimidating the people they have under their spell.

Seriously Nehor, people have been making these bold predictions about the 2nd coming for some time. They give these simplified views of how it's going to be. Yet when it really comes, things will seem just as random as ever and all we'll have to make sense of it is some complicated apologetic explanation like we have now.

As far as I'm concerned, if there is a God, he isn't around and he hasn't started settling the score on anything yet. He's just letting things go with no noticeable intervention. Are you saying He's actually going to do this at the 2nd coming? Are we actually going to know He's intervening?

[_Hoops]

if there is a God, he isn't around and he hasn't started settling the score on anything yet. He's just letting things go with no noticeable intervention.

would you like Him to begin with you?

[_The Dude]

It's still a promised land to lots of people in Mexico.

But seriously, the new teaching says Mitt Romney is the key. He the Mormon's best shot at making America a promised land again.

[_Ray A]

I believe America is the greatest and most influential nation on earth, and no number of Benedict Arnolds will change my opinion.

[_ajax18]

if there is a God, he isn't around and he hasn't started settling the score on anything yet. He's just letting things go with no noticeable intervention.

would you like Him to begin with you?

Sure, why not?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Coggins...

Do you agree that in order to prepare for the Coming of Christ, and to have Zion on the earth, the church members must be living the United Order?

Do you agree with the scriptures as it describes the United Order?

~dancer~