Science is not a belief system...

[_Nephi]

I see this mistake made everyday in my life, and it can be upsetting as such. So many times I see people who do not have a belief in God, or anything of spirituality because they use science as their "belief system". This is such a disturbing mistake to see happen, and I would like to take some time to explain why this is a bad way to use science.

Science vs. Religion. They are both tools. Tools are used by mankind for many things. Maybe the tool is used to alter something (like a knife), or used to fix something (like a screwdriver), or to help move something (a backhoe or a car), or is used to understand something around themselves (like an multimeter, or the Internet). So what are science and religion? They are tools used to understand stuff around themselves.

Where we are is a cool place. There are two "realms" that cross here - reality and spirituality, and the more we learn of both realms, the more of the two are merged together as one. Reality is the matter, energy, and space-time around us. Spirituality is the non-tangible energy and matter that gives structure to reality (ie, why things are here, what is a "you" and why "you" exist). They are separate realms that co-exist here, but there are parts of each realm that is currently separate from the other.

I have spoken of the parable of the microscope vs the telescope here before, but allow me to restate it:

You cannot use a microscope to find galaxies; you cannot use a telescope to find bacteria. If you do, you could draw the wrong conclusion that galaxies or bacteria do not exist.

By the same logic, one cannot use science to find God, and one cannot use religion to describe how "the sciences" work around the individual (like geology, or astrophysics, or psychology, et al). This is using the tools wrong, and doing as such causes one to draw the wrong conclusions (like the earth is the center of everything because God loves us, or that science hasn't found proof of God therefore, God does not exist).

And yet, we see this around us all the time. If you believe science to be a "religion" of both realms, you miss half the picture because your tool (science) cannot see one of the two realms. By the same nature, if you use religion describes both realms, you miss half the picture (for the same reason). Science and Religion co-exist when one realizes what each can do as a tool for one's self. As long as you separate the two realms and use the right tool for each realm, then they do not conflict with each other.

Regardless, both are essential tools if one wishes to see a better picture of both realms around themselves. Neither is a complete picture (we do not have all the answers in science, nor spirituality), and if anyone claims to have all the answers, they are sadly mislead. However, it is my personal belief, that when we do have all the answers, religion and science shall be inseparable tools.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Hi nephi,

I have never used science as a way of refuting God. Not necessary for me. I lost my belief before I even entered Middle School. :P

Most people I know (that don't spend a lot of time on bulletin boards) don't even think about science as anti-God. They don't even think about it. They just don't believe in God and don't need any reasoning to not. There is just a lack of belief.

Science had nothing, and still has nothing, to do with my issues with faith. I think some people that lose their faith, and particularly when they debate it, use science to try to sway others. I don't find it necessary to help those with a belief in God lose their faith.

[_Nephi]

Hi nephi,

I have never used science as a way of refuting God. Not necessary for me. I lost my belief before I even entered Middle School. :P

Most people I know (that don't spend a lot of time on bulletin boards) don't even think about science as anti-God. They don't even think about it. They just don't believe in God and don't need any reasoning to not. There is just a lack of belief.

Science had nothing, and still has nothing, to do with my issues with faith. I think some people that lose their faith, and particularly when they debate it, use science to try to sway others. I don't find it necessary to help those with a belief in God lose their faith.

Hello Mrs Monkeys:

Many times when asked why someone doesn't believe in God, their answer is that there is no proof of God. Proof is a scientific concept, a "tool" of science. Proof is not a concept of religion (hence why threads get enormous and lengthy batting around the bush at MAD). The equivalent tool to "proof" in religion is "intuition" or "faith". This is why sometimes I feel that people don't believe in God because they use the tools of science to search for It. Its the whole microscope/telescope thing.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Many times when asked why someone doesn't believe in God, their answer is that there is no proof of God. Proof is a scientific concept, a "tool" of science. Proof is not a concept of religion (hence why threads get enormous and lengthy batting around the bush at MAD). The equivalent tool to "proof" in religion is "intuition" or "faith". This is why sometimes I feel that people don't believe in God because they use the tools of science to search for It. Its the whole microscope/telescope thing.

Oh! I like Mrs. Monkeys! How proper!

I agree that people that are often on these bulletin boards do this. I just think it gives the impression (from this small sample) that many people do this. In my experience most people that have no belief in God use no justification or arguments against God. They don't ask for proof, they just don't care. :)

I just thought I'd add that into your discussion 1. Because I'm bored 2. Because I'm an atheist/agnostic and don't like the way my viewpoint is sometimes portrayed on this board.

[_marg]

Nephi,

You make many claims, but your say-so doesn't establish them.

I'll list them for you

God
spirituality
spirituality is non tangible energy and matter
spirtuality gives structure to reality.
Spirituality is a realm separate from the realm of reality
One can not use science to find God


Forgive me for not accepting your say so and whatever words of wisdom you think you are offering. And before you suggest I'm using science to say your claims to "things" don't exist, I'm not saying that. I'm saying the things you claim exist, I'm not convinced of, based solely on your opinion and whatever personal experiences you've had.

[_Nephi]

Nephi,

You make many claims, but your say-so doesn't establish them.

I'll list them for you

God
spirituality
spirituality is non tangible energy and matter
spirtuality gives structure to reality.
Spirituality is a realm separate from the realm of reality
One can not use science to find God


Forgive me for not accepting your say so and whatever words of wisdom you think you are offering. And before you suggest I'm using science to say your claims to "things" don't exist, I'm not saying that. I'm saying the things you claim exist, I'm not convinced of, based solely on your opinion and whatever personal experiences you've had.

I didn't ask you to accept them by my words only. I used a parable to explain a matter which cannot be proven true or false for someone else. I merely put forth a parable for all to read and think about. Whether or not you believe any of it is totally up to you... I do appreciate your contrary argument though.

[_Mercury]

I can't tell if this is Coggins or just another troll coming in for his rapid fire post fest followed by quick retreat.

[_marg]

I didn't ask you to accept them by my words only. I used a parable to explain a matter which cannot be proven true or false for someone else. I merely put forth a parable for all to read and think about. Whether or not you believe any of it is totally up to you... I do appreciate your contrary argument though.

And Nephi, with regards to your parable, science is not a tool. Science is practiced, it is the activity. Scientist do science. They don't use the tool of science.

[_asbestosman]

I don't think science disproves God, but regarding the bifurcation of science and religion:

I suggest you read Dawkins' Delusion book. In there he speaks about why he thinks giving each their own realm or using each as equal tools of discovering truth / reality is wrong. Mind you, I don't think Dawkins is an authority on religion, but then at least you'll have a better idea of where some of those atheists are coming from.

[_Nephi]

I didn't ask you to accept them by my words only. I used a parable to explain a matter which cannot be proven true or false for someone else. I merely put forth a parable for all to read and think about. Whether or not you believe any of it is totally up to you... I do appreciate your contrary argument though.

And Nephi, with regards to your parable, science is not a tool. Science is practiced, it is the activity. Scientist do science. They don't use the tool of science.

No, it is tested hypothesis to explain that which we see in reality around us. This information is used like a tool then to predict future event that happen within the reality around us. For example, Newton developed a theory of Gravity. It was tested by others and found to be accurate. The theory of Gravity was then used to help predict things such as the progression of planets, satellites, comets, meteors, et al. The science is a tool then.

But to compare and contrast, religion is also practiced, it is the activity. Relgious people do religion.