LSD Heightened Spiritual Experiences/Truth?

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_barrelomonkeys
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LSD Heightened Spiritual Experiences/Truth?

Post by _barrelomonkeys »

With Nephi's permission I'm starting this thread. Nephi shared snippets of his experiences:

Shortly there after, I started to revisit a drug (LSD) and used that ONLY for spiritual matters in understanding God. I came to a very strong belief of the concept of God through this, falling short of see God Itself (sexuality removed deliberately because I am not speaking of a masculine or feminine part of the concept of God).


Many do not use the drug correctly, and many cannot handle what they discover when on it. So it is a good tool for YOU personally to use? I can't say. For many, no, but for a handful, yes. Read, ponder, pray does work, but sometimes we are unable to hear the response. LSD does work, but sometimes it is too much to understand or to take back with us after the trip.

About 3 years after my father's death, I took a LOT of LSD all at once, on the hopes of finding some "key" out, or learning something overly profound that would set the path out before me. I can only remember blips and pieces of that trip, and can dare say that I saw God Itself during that, but I was not ready for what the trip showed me, and so I took very little from it.


So I wanted to have a chance to hear more about Nephi's experiences with Lysergic acid diethylamide. If anyone else wants to chime in please do so.

Experience with Dextromethorphan (DXM) or any other hallucigin, please pipe up too.

I'd also be interested in knowing if your experience Nephi was before or after you converted to LDS and how that may have played a role if any.
_huckelberry
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Post by _huckelberry »

I know a person who thinks he saw god on LSD. He has not changed that view even though it was decades ago. I am a skeptic. My experience says that the stuff causes a person to mix perceptual mental process with concept forming mental processes. You see your ideas but in a not so orderly fashion. There are conceptual process alterations that can be fun, interesting. New combinations can be interesting and conceivably someone could learn something from a new combination. They are a bit out of controll and serious psychological and coneptual confusions can result. People speak of being able to handle it have been lucky. Saw a couple too many people journey to la la land in 1969.
_Nephi

Re: LSD Heightened Spiritual Experiences/Truth?

Post by _Nephi »

barrelomonkeys wrote:With Nephi's permission I'm starting this thread.

So I wanted to have a chance to hear more about Nephi's experiences with Lysergic acid diethylamide. If anyone else wants to chime in please do so.

Experience with Dextromethorphan (DXM) or any other hallucigin, please pipe up too.

I'd also be interested in knowing if your experience Nephi was before or after you converted to LDS and how that may have played a role if any.


I said I would do what?! WTF are you talking about??? Oh wait. The private message.... Duh, too many drugs, I guess... ;)

But serious, lemme answer the last question first. I did hallucinogens before being a member of the church. Since that time, though the thought has crossed my mind, I have not searched out mushrooms, LSD, PCP, mescaline, or any other illegal hallucinogens.

I have (since joining the church), tried Salvia once, and won't do that again. It is far too short of an effect to gain anything meaningful from it, and it made me very very dizzy. It (for me) is not something I can gain any spiritual experiences from. Maybe for the next man, but not for me.

Hallucinogens have given me a very expanded viewpoint of spirituality and yes, I would say it did help precipitate our joining the church. My wife also believes that hallucinogens are excellent tools for a spiritual sense, "in the same manner as crutches are for a broken leg," which I agree with whole heartedly. She also agrees that such tools helped precipitate her joining the church as well (we joined as a family, together a lil over 2 years ago, now).

Heck, let's start off in the beginning. I had my first hit of pot at the age of 15, but it was but a drag (like I was smoking a cigarette) and I did not feel anything from it. A few months later, a friend of mine (whom I shared a very tight spiritual bond with) suggested we go out for the evening w/some friends of his and smoke a "dime bag". We did, and I never had quite an experience like that before in my life. Mentally, it expanded my ideas on a whole slew of things, including ideas of science, religion, self, and countless other things. Pot is an hallucinogen, though very mild compared to some of these other drugs. It is "mind altering" and can help in certain aspects of self introspection and others.

About 6 months later this same friend of mine told me about LSD and how he had tried some a week prior. He explained all kinds of mental and spiritual ideas that came to him from using this drug once. He explained how though he had visual hallucinations with the drug, that the main thing he took from it was extreme expansion of consciousness. So, (since my parents were to be gone that night), we searched out his buddy and I bought one square of paper LSD (it was called snowman for the obvious reason that each square had a snowman design on it).

The experience was completely mind altering, and gave me my first hints that I was incorrect in my assumptions that God and purpose of life was not realistic. I did not "flip out" or have a bad trip in the slightest. I also found a whole new appreciation for music at that point. Note that I was and still am to this day a musician, but music changed from a form of entertainment to a form of communication of hard to describe concepts.

Regardless, this was my junior year of high school, and by the end of high school, I would say that I had tripped probably 50 times or so. In each instance, my main reason for doing such was to learn something, to resolve some concept, or some aspect of my own personal spirituality. Never was my reasoning just to "have a good time", though I did find many times that I would be having a good time.

Tripping LSD (if you don't know) is a good 8-12 hour process, and (trust me) you aren't going to go to sleep during that time. When one doses LSD, they begin to feel it from 30-90 minutes after dosing. There is a steady, but fast increase in the feeling and consciousness that alters as time goes on, culminating in a "peak" which normally happens around 1-2 hours after you first start feeling the trip. The "coming down" is slow and steady after the peak for the remainder of the time.

Anyhow, after the first few times I had tripped, I came to understand this concept of a peak, and could judge fairly well that my peak was coming. During this time, I would go off on my own and sit and meditate, concentrating on what I came to find an answer to, or concentrating on what I could learn from what was occurring.

Of all the hallucinogens I have used in my life, LSD was by far my favorite. It was small and very pleasant to use with hardly any "side effects" (like how mushrooms would quite often make me vomit). I would use mushrooms on occasion, and mescaline once, but both of these natural hallucinogens would normally make me feel sick to my stomach and or cause me to vomit, which isn't pleasant. by the way: On a side note during those two years of high school where i smoked pot and did LSD, I NEVER ONCE skipped school, nor did it cause problems w/my grades (in fact my junior and senior years of high school were some of my best grades in school, with several strait A report cards).

Upon entering college, I did not use LSD or marijuana for the first year. It wasn't until my sophomore year that I started to use them again. Again my reasoning was because of spiritual reasons, but at the end of my junior year, I decided to save money for a trip to Las Vegas with some friends, and stopped smoking marijuana and tripping to save that money. About a month later, I had my first epileptic seizure. This was due to the fact that we have it in my family strongly (all men on my mother's side of the family have had epilepsy at some time in their life). I came to find out that it is quite likely that I was suppressing the seizures for my sophomore and junior years because marijuana is a great controller of seizure activity. In fact, after the first seizure, I kept myself medicated with marijuana 24/7 for 3 years because the side effects of that was better than the side effects of the medication they prescribed me. Even my doctor agreed (though not officially as he could lose his license in this state).

However, I continued to use LSD for years afterwards (about 10 years in all) amounting to about (guessing) 300-600 trips in total (this is including occasional tripping using other drugs like mushrooms). Most of these trips were while camping or at shows (I used to tour Phish), however, I NEVER TRIPPED FOR THE PARTY, I tripped for the spiritual help it gave me (on a side note, I never went to Phish shows just to do drugs, and many times I had no drugs to do. I was there for the music).

What did I learn? LSD allowed (for me) greater comprehension and meaning of symbols, especially personal symbols and social symbols of spirituality. It allowed for a greater concept of God and my purpose in life. Had I to do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing. Because of this higher functioning of symbolic reasoning, I am (I believe) better at comprehending and applying spiritual concepts to my life. I am very much a universalist because I can see how each and every religion and belief system out there is true if used correctly.

So anyhow, questions questions, who's got questions?
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

I'm no expert, never taken drugs myself, but I don't believe you can see God with LSD. What you see when you take hallucigenic drugs are hallucinations. Taking drugs to find God makes no sense to me. What would that say about the nature of God?
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

huckelberry wrote:I know a person who thinks he saw god on LSD. He has not changed that view even though it was decades ago. I am a skeptic. My experience says that the stuff causes a person to mix perceptual mental process with concept forming mental processes. You see your ideas but in a not so orderly fashion. There are conceptual process alterations that can be fun, interesting. New combinations can be interesting and conceivably someone could learn something from a new combination. They are a bit out of controll and serious psychological and coneptual confusions can result. People speak of being able to handle it have been lucky. Saw a couple too many people journey to la la land in 1969.


Wow. 1969? You are old! ;P

All your friends were in transit and you were always on ground control?
_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:I'm no expert, never taken drugs myself, but I don't believe you can see God with LSD. What you see when you take hallucigenic drugs are hallucinations. Taking drugs to find God makes no sense to me. What would that say about the nature of God?


You made up your mind already? Simply because you don't like what it "would say about the nature of God?" That seems a tad closed minded, in my opinion. Maybe you would be enlightened simply by answering your rhetorical question, as best you can. What would it say about the nature of God if you could contact the divine in mind-altered states, with drugs, meditation, fasting, ritual, etc? I don't see a problem here, actually.

We had an interesting thread on this a few months ago over on MADB. Here was my opening post to the thread titled: Towards a Science of Spiritual Experience
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... psilocybin

In summer 2006, researchers at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine published research on the psychedelic chemical psilocybin in the scholarly journal Psychopharmacology. The fascinating study has been called a landmark investigation into mystical experiences of profound spiritual significance. Volunteers were recruited by flyers announcing a "study of states of consciousness brought about by a naturally occurring psychoactive substance used sacramentally in some cultures." Participants were emotionally stable, middle-aged college graduates. Over half of the 30 volunteers were members of a religious or spiritual community, and all participated in religious or spiritual activities including personal prayer and meditation. These were ordinary people with an interest in spiritual things and no prior experience with psychedelic drugs. Were any of the volunteers LDS, I wonder?

2 months after the study, 2/3 of the volunteers rated the psilocybin experience to be either "The single most meaningful experience" of their lives or among the top five most meaningful experiences -- comparable to the birth of their first child. (Wow!!)

From the abstract:
Rationale: Although psilocybin has been used for centuries for religious purposes, little is known scientifically about its acute and persisting effects.

Objectives: This double-blind study evaluated the acute and longer-term psychological effects of a high dose of psilocybin relative to a comparison compound [Ritalin] administered under comfortable, supportive conditions.

Materials and methods: The participants were hallucinogenic naïve adults reporting regular participation in religious or spiritual activities. Two or three sessions were conducted at 2-month intervals. Thirty volunteers received orally administered psilocybin [or] methylphenidate hydrochloride [Ritalin] in counterbalanced order.... The 8-hour sessions were conducted individually. Volunteers were encouraged to close their eyes and direct their attention inward. Study monitors [i.e. research assistants] rated volunteers' behavior during sessions. Volunteers completed questionnaires assessing drug effects and mystical experience immediately after and 2 months after sessions. Community observers [i.e. friends and family] rated changes in the volunteer's attitudes and behavior.

Results: Psilocybin produced a range of acute perceptual changes, subjective experiences, and labile moods including anxiety. Psilocybin also increased measures of mystical experience. At 2 months, the volunteers rated the psilocybin experience as having substantial personal meaning and spiritual significance and attributed to the experience sustained positive changes in attitudes and behavior consistent with changes rated by community observers.

Conclusions: When administered under supportive conditions, psilocybin occasioned experiences similar to spontaneously occurring mystical experiences. The ability to occasion such experiences prospectively will allow rigorous scientific investigations of their causes and consequences.


Psilocybin is not a new drug. It is found naturally in "magic mushrooms" and has been used in religious ceremonies for hundreds or thousands of years.

In one of four enthusiastic commentaries, D.E. Nichols (PhD) of Purdue University writes: "One would be hard-pressed to find a single study of psychedelics from any earlier era that was as well-done or as meaningful."

Solomon Snyder (MD) of Johns Hopkins Department of Neuroscience writes: "Religious sensibilities are increasingly prominent throughout the world and often involve "born again" ineffable experiences.... Thus, seeking the "locus of religion" in the brain is by no means fanciful."

Psilocybin activates a type of serotonin receptor in the cortex of the brain. Dr. Nichols speculates that this may make these cells more sensitive to low-level brain signals that are always present but are not apparent to our everyday awareness.

Most of what we know about spiritual and mystical phenomenon comes from individual descriptions of spontaneous experiences -- anecdotes and testimonies. Charles R. Schuster (PhD) of Wayne State University writes: "Personally, I believe that these drugs have a role in discovering the brain mechanisms underlying feelings of spirituality and that such understanding may lead to our investigation of nonpharmacological means of engendering such states." Certainly he is aware that there are already nonpharmacological means of attaining spiritual enlightenment....

I wonder if psilocybin, or simply good study design (as was done here) could eventually lead to scientific studies on what happens in the brain to create feelings that LDS are taught to interpret as personal revelation and promptings from the Holy Ghost.

Can you imagine taking part in a study like this where you were asked to read the Book of Mormon, then take some psilocybin and pray about it? Do you think this could be relevant to what people seek, and some receive, when they apply Moroni's promise and pray about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? How do you think this could be relevant to your experiences and those you have heard about in testimony meeting?


Nephi might be interested in taking a look at some other posts in the thread. Too bad we can't resurrect it on MADB since they now lock expired threads....

I, for one, am open to the possibility that something deeper can be reached through mind altering states, although I will always be skeptical of the conclusions and insights when they cannot be tested on the outside. If it goes away once the drug wears off, how can you be sure it was ever real?
Last edited by Doctor Steuss on Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:I'm no expert, never taken drugs myself, but I don't believe you can see God with LSD. What you see when you take hallucigenic drugs are hallucinations. Taking drugs to find God makes no sense to me. What would that say about the nature of God?


Dreams are basically hallucinations, but even the Bible tells us that our dreams can tell us things. Can you see God? Depends on your concept of God. Does this mean that it is not God? No, it is whatever you make of it. If you use the tool correctly, it will achieve its purpose for you. Your question about what does (taking drugs to find God) say about the nature of God? What does taking drugs to promote health say about God?

A drug is but a tool, and nothing more. Drugs are used for health, for social things (alcohol and tobacco), for spiritual reasons, and a whole slew of other reasons. Praying is a tool, as well, as is going to a temple, fasting, reading scripture, and any other ways people do to understand God better. What does this imply about God? God left tools for us all to use, and some people cannot use certain tools, so God put a multitude of tools out here to help us.
_barrelomonkeys
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Re: LSD Heightened Spiritual Experiences/Truth?

Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Nephi wrote:
I said I would do what?! WTF are you talking about??? Oh wait. The private message.... Duh, too many drugs, I guess... ;)


;P
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:I'm no expert, never taken drugs myself, but I don't believe you can see God with LSD. What you see when you take hallucigenic drugs are hallucinations. Taking drugs to find God makes no sense to me. What would that say about the nature of God?



I don't really believe many people actually see hallucinations on LSD. I am rather skeptical of most people's "stories" from tripping. Granted maybe that's just my skepticism and my own "reality" of experiences getting in the way.

I think what you were looking for when you went in may often be what you got out of it?
_Nephi

Re: LSD Heightened Spiritual Experiences/Truth?

Post by _Nephi »

barrelomonkeys wrote:
Nephi wrote:
I said I would do what?! WTF are you talking about??? Oh wait. The private message.... Duh, too many drugs, I guess... ;)


;P


You all take jokes over here much better than people do on MAD. I called a lady "sug" in a thread one day and got red msg'd by an admin for it, sheez...

barrelomonkeys wrote:I think what you were looking for when you went in may often be what you got out of it?

No, quite often it would not be. A good example was when I did my big dose (see previous thread), I was hoping to see my father who had passed away about 6 months prior, that I would have a chance to say goodbye to him, but this did not happen. In fact, strangely enough my father was very absent from that trip. I can agree that sometimes people will not be able to comprehend well what they saw and make it fit what they want (that is possible in life with or without hallucinogens), but you have to use the tool correctly, heh...
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