So, I posted this over on MAD, but since that will be more of a Mormon answer, I wanted to hear you alls' answers as well.
Here I have quoted it (seems the mods moved it already w/in 2 mins of me posting it):
I came to an epiphany last night, a reason why I have felt "weird" about the church since we moved to this new ward over a year ago (coming up on two years, now), and it has taken me this long to realize what the problem is. The problem is a definition of "The Church". I have been using a definition that the church is the structural buildings, "order of hierarchy", and the doctrine and fundamentals described by this established structure. However, I have been ignoring the most important part of this equation, and the part that really makes up "the Church". The Church is the people that make it up. EVERYTHING ELSE is secondary.
When we joined the church, the people made the conversion. This was in another stake and ward altogether. We were in this ward for about 10 months or so. We had true counsel when needed, and felt that we were members of a family. Now we are in our current ward, and have fallen on hard times. Not only is there no counsel, but there is no family feeling here. In other words, we feel as though we are asking too much by asking for anything from our ward leaders or even the members themselves. Outside of Sundays, rarely do we see members during the week. There is not ward activities outside of our children coming together on Wednesdays. The family feeling there is non-existent.
This really bothers me, especially the lack of counsel. Its not that we sit here waiting for counsel. Many times I have approached our Bishop asking for counsel of problems we have had this past year (and we have had some very very tough things occur). His replies back have been, "man, that's a tough one. Go and pray about it," or, "I dunno how to help you here."
Upon the epiphany, my understanding of why I have felt so weird came to light. My testimony in our previous ward was of the first definition I gave of the church and since the second definition was in harmony of this, my testimony grew of the truthfulness of the Gospel. But since being here, the lack of community, the lack of counsel, the lack of a personal church is not here, and therefore my testimony has stalled. Luckily its just stalled, but I feel it slipping because of the people of the ward. Furthermore, we do not see us moving from here in the next year or two, meaning I have two more years of this to deal with.
I feel that if I do survive this ward, I will move to another ward without the community feeling that is needed in any ward and without the idea that I should go to my bishopric or to those over me for advice and confidence. Anyone else been here, done this? Suggestions?
The same kind of thing happened to my brother and his wife. When his wife was baptized and he became active in the church again, the ward they were in was incredibly supportive and helpful. After the LA riots, they moved out to the suburbs into a ward that was anything but friendly. They were basically ignored, and they soon stopped attending.
If I were to put on my believer hat, I'd say it's a dangerous thing to try to get a testimony of the church membership. My father always taught us to expect our church leaders and fellow worshippers to have human weaknesses. We were thus never disappointed. In a sense, my testimony of the membership is that it's amazing so much good is done (and even an apostate like me can admit that a lot of good is done) by such flawed individuals.
As a believer, I used to distinguish three churches:
-The church as a religion with doctrines and beliefs and practices
-The cultural church, meaning the sum of all the cultural idiosyncrasies that tend to be associated with the church and its members.
-The institutional church, which is the structured, corporate church, with its business dealings, committees, manuals, and procedures.
That way, I figured I need only have a testimony of the first. Served me well until that went away.
Best of luck to you. Just be patient with your ward. Things can always change.
Nephi wrote: The problem is a definition of "The Church". I have been using a definition that the church is the structural buildings, "order of hierarchy", and the doctrine and fundamentals described by this established structure.
The problem is you get all sorts of people as members , so you can't rely on that as a guide. The doctrine and fundamentals change frequently, so you can't really rely on that. So that brings you to your first 2 items: The structural buildings, and the order of hierarchy. I think you nailed it there. That is the rock on which the Mormon church is built - buildings and brethren. As long as you have a testimony in those two things you can ignore the rest.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
SatanWasSetUp wrote:The problem is you get all sorts of people as members , so you can't rely on that as a guide. The doctrine and fundamentals change frequently, so you can't really rely on that. So that brings you to your first 2 items: The structural buildings, and the order of hierarchy. I think you nailed it there. That is the rock on which the Mormon church is built - buildings and brethren. As long as you have a testimony in those two things you can ignore the rest.
You know, I kind of half-way agree with you. In essence, the church is what the Brethren say it is. If one day black people aren't to have the gospel, they can have a revelation and change the doctrine/practice. Continuing revelation means that the definition of the church is fluid and can adapt to change. That's a good thing for a church that wants to grow in the next century and beyond.
Runtu wrote:You know, I kind of half-way agree with you. In essence, the church is what the Brethren say it is. If one day black people aren't to have the gospel, they can have a revelation and change the doctrine/practice. Continuing revelation means that the definition of the church is fluid and can adapt to change. That's a good thing for a church that wants to grow in the next century and beyond.
I agree that a fluid church is necessary for sustained growth, but I find that sometimes this is considered apostate in other churches.
To build up businesses they use the borrowing power of so much land and assets. The church owns several banks so this is no surprise.
They own several plantations where indentured servants come in the form of missionary dropouts and eager but frail senior missionaries. skilled traesmen are debased by "volunteering" their time and paying their way to supporting the church businesses.
I do not say this to be rude or confrontational. This religion you find so groovy and compatible with a Widespread Panic show and post hippie culture hangover syndrome is just a phase hopefully. There is nothing but wacky temple ceremonies just as bad as a live action fantasy dorkfest in the park and years of paying tithing and wasting untold amount of time. The only difference between live role playing and the temple ceremony is that you can do it in secret so no one can see you being silly. that's the secret of the temple: There is no secret and Mormonism is all F***** up.
The Church: A community of imperfect people who share a common belief system about the universe and god's role in it. Also, a community of people who believe that Joseph Smith was a modern day prophet who brought to life god's plan for a restoration of God's true church.
Now within that definition falls your bishop and all others who believe in the church. And I stress imperfect.
Tricky one Nephi.
I have some active friends who experienced the same thing and they moved ward. They now love the ward they are in, and are able to contribute positively and also feel a part of a 'larger' family.
Crumbs though, I was single with inactive parents when I was active, though I was very familiar with my home ward (never really felt at home in my college ward - though some of the young people were great) I can never say that I felt a part of the whole 'family' thing.
So, I concentrated on the number 1 that Runto spoke of, and when that went everything went.