The Confounding World of LDS Doctrinal Pronouncements...

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_cksalmon
_Emeritus
Posts: 1267
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:20 pm

The Confounding World of LDS Doctrinal Pronouncements...

Post by _cksalmon »

Much ink (electronic and material) has been spilled on the issue of "official" LDS doctrine. I'd like to present and hopefully hash out with you a test case.

The case involves God's knowledge and official LDS belief about God's knowledge.

In sum, the historical record is clear that Prophet Brigham Young, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve presented and signed a document stating that true LDS doctrine holds that God progresses in knowledge. This was in response to statements made by Orson Pratt in the Seer that God does not progress in knowledge. Much later, Bruce R. McConkie suggested that the view of Prophet Brigham Young, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve was heretical.

McConkie's thesis, while unrefuted (to my knowledge) by later GA's, is nevertheless unofficial and non-binding.

McConkie's Heresies

Bruce R. McConkie delivered a fireside address at Brigham Young University on 1 June 1980 entitled, "The Seven Deadly Heresies." Among the heresies he discussed (in fact his number one list-topper) was the heresy of believing that God progresses in knowledge and learns new truths:

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

This is false--utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.


Here.

McConkie was, at the time, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. Does that make his statements authoritative?

[Oddly, if one takes McConkie's statement seriously, one must conclude that he is implicitly labeling Brigham Young, his First Presidency, and his contemporary Quorum of the Twelve as heretics--i.e., those who hold heretical views. McConkie himself, however, would likely have been labeled as heretical by Brigham Young, etc., for denying what they themselves affirmed.--cks]

What is Official Doctrine?

Writing for FAIR, Michael R. Ash presents the following guidelines:

Harold B. Lee expressed similar thoughts when he taught that any doctrine, advanced by anyone—regardless of position—that was not supported by the standard works, then “you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion.”

He recognized that the Prophet could bring forth new doctrine, but “when he does, [he] will declare it as revelation from God,” after which it will be sustained by the body of Church (John A. Tvedtnes, “The Nature of Prophets and Prophecy.” [Unpublished, 1999, copy in my {i.e., Ash's} possession.]).

The Prophet can add to the scriptures, but such new additions are presented by the First Presidency to the body of the Church and are accepted by common consent (by sustaining vote) as binding doctrine of the Church (See D&C 26:2; 107:27-31).

D&C 26:2
And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.


D&C 107:21-30
21 Of necessity there are presidents, or presiding aofficers growing out of, or appointed of or from among those who are ordained to the several offices in these two priesthoods.
22 Of the aMelchizedek Priesthood, three bPresiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and cupheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.
23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special cwitnesses of the name of Christ in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.
24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.
25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.
26 And they form a quorum, equal in aauthority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.
27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other—
28 A majority may form a quorum when circumstances render it impossible to be otherwise—
29 Unless this is the case, their decisions are not entitled to the same blessings which the decisions of a quorum of three presidents were anciently, who were ordained after the order of Melchizedek, and were arighteous and holy men.
30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all arighteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and blong suffering, and in cfaith, and dvirtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity;


Until such doctrines or opinions are sustained by vote in conference, however, they are “neither binding nor the official doctrine of the Church” (Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian? (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1992), 15.)

Here.

I am unaware of a sustaining vote in General Conference of either (1) Brigham Young and the Quorum of the Twelve's pronouncement that God is indeed progressing in knowledge or (2) McConkie's pronouncement that such a belief is "completely false" and heretical.

Thus, if we apply the suggestions of Tvedtnes, Harold B. Lee, and Stephen Robinson to the issue of God's progressing in knowledge, we find that neither The First Presidency/Q12's pronouncements nor McConkie's directly contrary pronouncement are doctrinal. Of course, to my knowledge, none of the statements by Tvedness, Lee, or Robinson have been pronounced by the First Presidency in General Conference and sustained by members. Thus, their comments are certainly not doctrinal and it is unclear what, if any, weight they should be given. Their statements are manifestly unofficial and so are certainly not authoritative.

The article signed by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve (see Deseret News, 25 July 1860, pp. 162-163; or the reprint in ibid., 23 August 1865, pp. 372-373) clearly indicates that those institutions viewed Pratt's notion that God doesn't progress in knowledge to be doctrinally abberant. In other words, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve implicitly affirmed as official LDS doctrine that God, in fact, does progress in knowledge.

In the article (signed by the First Presidency and Q12), one finds the following warning (directed against Pratt and those who might be tempted to do what Pratt had done):

It ought to have been known years ago by every person in the church for ample teachings have been given on the point that no member of the church has the right to publish any doctrines as the doctrines of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints without first submitting them for examination and approval to the First Presidency and the twelve. There is but one man upon the earth at one time who holds the keys to receive commandments and revelations for the church and who has the authority to write doctrines by way of commandment unto the church and any man who so far forgets the order instituted by the lord as to write and publish what may be termed new doctrines without consulting with the First Presidency of the church respecting them places himself in a false position and exposes himself to the power of darkness by violating his priesthood


We see here that Brigham Young affirmed that only the Prophet (at the time, himself) had the right to offer up doctrinal pronouncements for the Church. And it was he (acting in that capacity) who steadfastly affirmed that God does progress in knowledge (contra Pratt). And, not to put too fine a point on it, it must again be stressed that both the First Presidency and Q12 attached their names to both points: (a) that God progresses in knowledge and (b) that only the Prophet is allowed to make doctrinal pronouncements.

There can be no doubt that, in accord with the lines of authority operative and assumed at the time of writing, that it was officially-binding LDS doctrine that God progresses in knowledge. Brigham Young affirmed it. The First Presidency and Q12 affirmed it. Orson Pratt was bound by it.

Whether modern LDS wish to own this doctrine is, of course, another matter. Some do, indeed, affirm it; others do not.

What is clear is that, assuming Ash's paradigm, McConkie's denial of God's progression is without a doubt neither doctrinal nor doctrinally binding. His statements, having not been presented by the First Presidency and sustained by the members, can be easily and justifiably ignored. As far as the issue of official doctrine goes, he may as well not have uttered a word at the fireside in question.

I suppose one can almost as easily erase the clear statements of the First Presidency and Q12 to the effect that God does progress in knowledge. But, in that case, one's rejection of Brigham Young's prophetic pronouncement imports an anachronistic overlay onto the historical situation at the time. It was clear to the principals involved that what Young pronounced and FP/Q12 affirmed simply was doctrine. No official statements, again, to my knowledge, have overturned their pronouncement.

But, now, real weirdness ensues.

In his book, Are Mormons Christian?, Robinson makes what is, to my mind, a strange reference. In chapter two, "The Exclusion by Misrepresentation," Robinson attempts to build a case that Latter-day Saints should not be excluded from bearing the label "Christian" "for things they don't believe" (p. 9).

In a subsection of that chapter, "What is Official Doctrine?" Robinson references the very issue discussed above.

In their encounters with anti-Mormon critics, quite often the Saints seem to feel constrained to defend too much. For example, the fact that Orson Pratt may have said such and such on this or that occasion does not make it a proposition that needs defending. Elder Pratt was very outspoken in his opinions [including the opinion that God does not progress in knowledge--cks], which sometimes disagreed with the General Authorities. He was frequently instructed to make clear to his hearers or readers that his views were his own and not the doctrine of the Church; and on at least one occasion he was instructed by the President of the Church [Brigham Young--cks] to recant publicly opinions he had represented as doctrine.


His fn 8 is, of course, a citation of Deseret News, 25 July 1860, pp. 162-163; or the reprint in ibid., 23 August 1865, pp. 372-373.

And publicly Pratt did so, in Deseret News, 25 July 1860, p. 162. He recanted any and all personal views that were not in line with the Prophet. He stated, in effect, that nothing would be revealed to him truly by God that did not conform to the doctrine of the Church leadership.

What were the beliefs he was then repentant that he had erroneously proclaimed?

They are detailed in the 1860 article.
Image
Image

This article, signed by the then First Presidency, clearly and forthrightly denounced Pratt's notions as untrue. It was not doctrinally correct, per the highest Church leadership, to believe that God does not progress. The notion was "not true."

The original denunciation by the First Presidency in 1860 was quoted and reprinted in a longer article in 1865 (Deseret News, 23 August 1865, pp. 372-373) that was signed by, not just the First Presidency, but also the Quorum of the Twelve, as shown below.

Image

That Robinson would cite this instance (without providing details) strikes me as odd. His characterization of the event implies that (a) there is such a thing as official LDS doctrine, (b) that Pratt's pronouncements were not constitutive of official LDS doctrine, and © that the position held by the President of the Church (Brigham Young) was official LDS doctrine.

Bear in mind, this citation is from the subsection of chapter two entitled "What is Official Doctrine?" If Robinson does not hold the pronouncement by Prophet Brigham Young, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve to be official doctrine, it seems dishonest for him to use these events as an instance of church leadership correcting aberrant, non-official doctrinal statements.

The other option is that the predicative proposition "God progresses in knowledge" was at one time true, but has since become false. But, this is an absurd positon to take. It won't suffice to suggest that Robinson was merely illustrating a principle without committing himself to the truthfulness of the prophetic pronouncement involved. Again, he is attempting to illustrate that there does indeed exist true, offical LDS doctrine and that the Pratt affair was an instance of the GA's affirming said true, official LDS doctrine to the exclusion of Pratt's false, abberant doctrinal opinions.

Latter-day Saints have at least three options: (1) Agree with Prophet Brigham Young, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve (and, apparently, Robinson) that God does indeed progress in knowledge, (2) agree with McConkie that the Prophet Brigham Young, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve (and, apparently, Robinson) believe/d and proclaimed heretical doctrines, or (3) suggest that the Prophet Brigham Young, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve were acting in no official capacity with regard to this pronouncement and that their pronouncement can be justifiably ignored (which, per BY and Pratt's statements, is manifestly anachronistic). Of course, (3) entails that (4) McConkie's pronouncement to the contrary must also be justifiably ignored.

Thus, per (3) and (4), LDS have no official doctrine regarding whether or not God progresses in knowledge. Maybe yes; maybe no. Either McConkie was heretical or BY/FP/Q12 was heretical. Both cannot be correct.

The question to the interested outsider becomes: if LDS have so little knowledge of God that they cannot say officially and unequivocally whether he is omniscient or epistemologically finite, why should the LDS religion be considered definitive re: the question of God?

If anything, this issue demonstrates that LDS authority structures are ill-equipped to provide even basic "official" information about the nature of God's knowledge.

And What's the point of having a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, a First Presidency, and a Quorum of the Twelve if their (signed) doctrinal pronouncements can be so readily ignored?

Thoughts? Corrections, material and interpretive, welcome.

And what is official LDS doctrine about the state of God's knowledge?

CKS
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Post by _The Nehor »

Don't try to pin us down, we wriggle away every time :)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_KimberlyAnn
_Emeritus
Posts: 3171
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:03 pm

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

CKSalmon, even most Mormons don't understand what really is or isn't Mormon doctrine - and it's evident from the kerfluffle detailed in your post why they don't! It's too confusing and I believe now that some doctrine is meant to be nebulous. Makes it easier to change. :)

I can tell you that I grew up being taught that God did indeed progress in knowledge, and would progress for eternity - that there was no end to learning, even for God. I was taught the idea of Eternal Progression in church and from my Mormon family members. I never questioned the teaching until I left Mormonism.

Also, the Word of Wisdom is a point of contention for some people to this day. It was originally not a mandate, and as far as I know, has never officially been made a mandate, inasmuch as it was not made a commandment in an official proclamation and then sustained as such. It was, however, added to the list of things necessary for obtaining a temple recommend and no one can be baptized a Mormon if they're not keeping the Word of Wisdom. [Mormon God doesn't take certain types of sinners into his church - those wicked tea drinkers, for instance. Funny, really, the pastor at my husband's church, when speaking about conversions to Christianity, says, "We catch 'em, God cleans 'em.". There's nothing in a baptism interview except a question asking if they believe Jesus Christ is their Savior. In the Mormon church it sometimes seems the opposite. People have to be cleaned up before Mormon God wants much to do with them. The whole idea of a detailed baptism interview is odd, really. I don't recall any such thing happening in the Bible when all those folks were baptized on the day of Pentecost. Sorry for the tangent. :)]

Good luck pinning down Mormon doctrine. It's like nailing shredded carrot-filled green jello to the wall.

KA
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Post by _The Nehor »

KimberlyAnn wrote:Good luck pinning down Mormon doctrine. It's like nailing shredded carrot-filled green jello to the wall.


Now if it only it were raspberry jello you could just eat it instead. Well, that's what LDS doctrine tends to taste like for me. :)

Nummers.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_sailgirl7
_Emeritus
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:51 pm

Post by _sailgirl7 »

CKS-

This is an interesting question and one that really caused me to start to wonder about the church being "true". The more I tried to figure out an answer to a question like this, the more I found that there is not ONE answer but many and all are subject to interpretation. I also struggle with the concept of how to know if something is official church doctrine or not and if all doctrine has equal value. Like Packer who says that not all truth is useful. Maybe not all doctrine is useful?

My understanding of what is currently taught is that God does indeed possess ALL knowledge.

First of all, there are the scriptures:

Mosiah 4:9
Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.
(bold mine)

2 Nephi 2:24
But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
(bold mine)


On LDS.org in the Gospel topic section it states:

God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He "has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (D&C 130:22).
(bold mine)

In Gospel Principles we are taught:

God is perfect. He is a God of love, mercy, charity, truth, power, faith, knowledge, and judgment. He has all power. He knows all things. He is full of goodness.
Our Father in Heaven (bold mine)

President Joseph Fielding Smith said:

God is our Father; he is the being in whose image man is created. He has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s (D&C 130:22), and he is the literal and personal father of the spirits of all men. He is omnipotent and omniscient; he has all power and all wisdom; and his perfections consist in the possession of all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgment, all mercy, all truth, and the fullness of all godly attributes.

-First Presidency Message The Most Important Knowledge


I tried to find any statement like that from Pres.Hinckley, but I could not. I'm not sure what his stance is on the matter.

So it seems the simple answer is yes God does possess all Knowledge. But of course that is the "milk" and then it gets more complicated.

From BYU Studies there is this question and answer:
How can God be all-knowing and still progress eternally?
An article by James R. Harris explains that some students have been confused by apparently conflicting statements made by early Church leaders about God's omniscience on the one hand and his ability to grow in knowledge and glory on the other. These leaders recognized that God could somehow grow in knowledge and at the same time experience no deficiency in his knowledge, being, in fact, a possessor of all knowledge. God's foreknowledge spans all of man's experience (premortal, mortal, post-mortal, and immortal) and man's end (his final condition as an individual) is known by God, "from the beginning." This foreknowledge may have come as a result of God's long observation of his children through premortal ages or eons, or it may come as a result of the celestial globe where God resides and where things past, present, and future are continually before the Lord. In this sense, God's knowledge is perfect. Eternal progression, like eternal life, may represent a quality of experience and not exclusively a duration of experience. The mind of our God is in constant and perfect union with all that is divine throughout the immensity of space. Our Lord, Jesus Christ, has the character of a God and under the law of consecration, he is the possessor of all things. All that God possesses in wisdom, knowledge, and power, are his through a union of property among all Exalted Fathers. Thus, as the Lord moves to ever higher degrees of exaltation, a constant flow of knowledge and power will be called forth from what Harris calls the "Grand Union of Divine Minds." Harris suggests that while God is progressing in knowledge, there is never a practical deficiency in his knowledge because of his immediate access to the experience and knowledge of all divine beings.
abstracted from "Eternal Progression and the Foreknowledge of God," BYU Studies 8, no. 1 (1967): 37–46.


I have no idea what that means- and I know it's not official doctrine, I just thought it was interesting, not very useful, but nevertheless amusing.

Also there is the principle taught that we can indeed know the nature of God for ourselves- so perhaps this is one of those things we are just supposed to figure out ourselves, afterall, it was Joseph Smith who said, “It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God” (History of the Church, 6:305).

D&C 84:19 tells us:

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.
(bold mine)

This is circular reasoning at its best, in a talk from James E. Faust he says:

To obtain the full portion of these supernal blessings and come to a full knowledge of God, a man must enter into and keep the oath and covenant of the priesthood. 9 President Marion G. Romney insightfully pointed out:

“The only way a man can make the maximum progress towards eternal life, for which mortality is designed, is to obtain and magnify the Melchizedek Priesthood. … It is of utmost importance that we keep clearly in mind what the magnifying of our callings in the priesthood requires of us. … It requires at least the following three things:

“1. That we obtain a knowledge of the gospel.

“2. That we comply in our personal living with the standards of the gospel.

“3. That we give dedicated service.” 10


So it would seem that the Melchizedek Priesthood is the key to the knowledge of God- we must have a knowledge of the gospel in order to attain knowledge of the gospel! We must make and keep covenants through the Priesthood with God in order to be worthy to get knowledge from the Priesthood about God. Huh?!

“One who can truly affirm that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and Jesus is the Savior, has in his possession a prize beyond computation. When we know this we know God, and we have a key to all knowledge.”
Joseph F. Smith.

So you see- it's VERY simple really- don't you understand? I don't!
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

This is true of any church which you walk into. Even the Catholic church has contradicted itself in doctrine (see Geocentric and Heliocentric views). It becomes difficult in Mormon doctrine as to define what is and is not doctrine as it is not a steady thing. This "conundrum" sounds like the argument of "can God make a rock so big that He, Himself, cannot lift it" argument. Both sides present good viewpoints, but both almost cancel out the other side.

The real question I have when presented with "questionable doctrine" (is it doctrine or not) is to ask myself how does this change my spiritual quest in life? Most of it (for instance the point you are referring to in this post) has no bearing upon my spiritual quest at this time. Think of it like voting for a president. There are issues that challenge a person's vote, and issues that do not. I could care less if the President wears boxers or briefs, though this might come out in the press.

Same thing here (in a sense), not that the church gets my vote or not, but more so the issue brought up has no real bearing upon the issue at hand, namely my spiritual quest (or salvation or the Glory of God, whatever one wishes to call it).
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Post by _Sethbag »

Nephi wrote:This is true of any church which you walk into.

Indeed, which is perfectly understandable when one realizes that the LDS church is indeed just as manmade as any other church you might walk into.

The real question I have when presented with "questionable doctrine" (is it doctrine or not) is to ask myself how does this change my spiritual quest in life?

The real real question, which you ought to be asking yourself, is why in the heck you believe a word these men say at all. They've got pretty much zero credibility as possessors of special knowledge given directly by God. It seems at every turn they're uttering their own, personal, fallible opinions, which is the same as saying that they're just making it up as they go along, like the founders and leaders of every other church out there.

CKsalmon: you said "And What's the point of having a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, a First Presidency, and a Quorum of the Twelve if their (signed) doctrinal pronouncements can be so readily ignored?"

Well, what indeed is the point? You've illustrated perfectly the problem with believing these men are Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, empowered by God with The Truth(tm). The bottom line is, they're got no more special insight into God than anyone else. Which isn't surprising at all when you realize that there isn't a God at all, and they're just making it all up.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Post by _The Nehor »

The LDS Church has very, very little doctrine. The Church is not a babysitter for anyones spiritual life. If you want to know the answer to more questions you have to read a lot, ponder a lot, and pray a lot.

One moment we're accused of "When the Brethren have spoken, the thinking has been done". Then we're accused of not having firm enough doctrine. We can't win that game.

In truth the LDS Church is very free about what it's members can believe. Which is why an eccentric nutcase like me is still in good standing :)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

Sethbag wrote:The real real question, which you ought to be asking yourself, is why in the heck you believe a word these men say at all.

Because if all churches are manmade (as you pointed out), then there is no pure source of spiritual knowledge anywhere in the world. This either means that the individual should look nowhere to find his spiritual nourishment, or one should look at many sources. I am a member of this church because the basics that it teaches is very true, and there is a large amount of ritual intertwined in the doctrine, which is largely missed from many established religions in the world. The church gives my children foundation for them to build their spiritual journeys upon.

However, being a member doesn't mean I put on blinders (and I hope all here have learned this about myself upon reading my posts here). I find spirituality from many different sources. As written in scriptures
Matt 4:4 - It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
_Scottie
_Emeritus
Posts: 4166
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:54 pm

Post by _Scottie »

The Nehor wrote:The LDS Church has very, very little doctrine.

I think it would be more accurate to say the church has very, very little "official" docrine. In the culture of the church, there is TONS of it.

Nephi wrote:I find spirituality from many different sources.

You are the exception.
Post Reply