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The spirit of discernment, is it reliable? Paul H Dunn was a prolific story teller. Imagine the number of firesides where he resided as the key speaker. Imagine all of the members who "felt the spirit". Imagine their surprise to find out much later, that the stories were simply fabrications.

Watch any well done theatrical performance or movie, or even a moving musical experience, and note the emotional response that can follow. Paul told some great stories! He probably sold a lot of books and cassettes too. This simply illustrates that members will equate a good story, with emotional impact, to a manifestation from the spirit.

Some will simply say that the spirit was testifying of the basic principles despite the lies Paul was delivering. Some will say that there were young men who would needed a priesthood member to look up to who had professional sports experience, like brother Dunn, who stretched the truth in regards to his athletic accomplishments. Some will say that we sure do go to elaborate lengths to validate the spirit of discernment, when it clearly has fallen on its face.

I know that I probably post too many personal stories, but this may apply:

During my mission in Alabama, there was only one individual that I could have felt proud about bringing into the church. This lady was educated, completely normal, and had the ability to perform as a contributing member. Now we never baptized her, but that is not the point of the story as you will see.

In my possession was a talk tape titled "The 17 Points to the True Church". I gave this lady the tape to listen to as I thought she would enjoy it. A week later there was a message on our answering machine from this sister. She said that she had been listening to the tape, was overcome by tears, and now knew the church was true! Anyone who has served a mission can identify with the spiritual high that this experience provided for my companion and myself.

I was soon transfered, but remained on cloud nine for quite some time. Towards the end of my mission, an edict was issued that this particular talk tape no longer be used. There were issues with its validity - just like Paul Dunn's stories. The pit in my stomach was horrible. Both myself and this sister, who had received a spiritual experience from this tape, were really just having an emotional response to good story that we hoped was true.

Last year, I did well in a bike race. As I felt some of the feelings of exhilaration at the finish line, I knew in my heart that bicycling was TRUE! So even if I get run over by a car some day, I'll testify in the ambulance that I've had my witness and you can't take it away - cycling is the one true sport! Haha.

Emotions can be deceiving. Physicians cannot perform surgery on someone they are related to. The emotional ties can cloud judgement. The church is full of emotions. The church is full of family ties. No opportunity for clouded judgement here, huh?

What's really fascinating is that the world is full of people who believe strongly in their religious beliefs, and yet are wrong about them. Some of these people have experiences and attribute them to the Holy Spirit much like LDS do, and some use different experiences and explain their certainty that they are right in different terms. What really boggles my mind about this is that it's so plainly obvious how easy it is to be completely convinced in the truthfulness of one's church or religion, and yet be wrong about it.

You'd think more people would recognize this and be willing to accept the possibility that they too might be wrong, just like everyone else out there, and for a lot of the same reasons. But no, despite the fact that almost every religious believer out there in the world is convinced by their beliefs, and yet are wrong, people still think that they're special, that they're the exception, in that their certainty that they're true comes from the fact that they really are true. And not that they're deceived somehow, or fooling themselves, like everyone else out there.

As I've pondered over the last year or so what is it about the message we have for our LDS family members that would most effectively help them see the light, I'm convinced that a key element to it must be a way to help them see that they really might be just as wrong in their convictions as everyone else in the world, who they are convinced must actually be wrong about their convictions. That we're not so different, so special, so unique in being actually true when so many others in situations just like ours have fallen prey to a false conviction. If Joe JW or Erny Evangelical can be wrongly convinced that their beliefs are true, why can't we also be wrongly convinced? It's a truly great question, and I know of so few believers willing to take it seriously. Even most attempts to take it even halfway seriously usually end up looking more like variations on Pascal's Wager.

It's amazing how lazily some LDS people rationalize this point to keep themselves feeling special in the face of all the other claims. Their attitude towards these other "false" religions is they have some truth, and that's what true believers (in Catholicism, Islam, J-Dubism, etc.) are feeling the Holy Ghost about. Nevertheless, the claim goes, Mormons (insert qualifier) have the most truth, and the most best good feelings from the holy spirit. Obviously this does not address the key point of bringing up the other religions: They all think they've got the most best good feelings from the holy spirit, even if they don't use the same words to describe their emotional connection to their sectarian truth claims. Some Mormons go further and try to sound universal in their approach to god, but this does not sit well next to the church's huge missionary effort and their belief in baptizing dead Catholics, Jews, J-Dubs, etc. because everybody needs a chance to be touched by the magical Mormon priesthood ordinances.

Maxrep's concern that a spiritual witness is too vague to be a truth indicator is yet another reason to doubt. You can feel good feelings for all sorts of reasons, including listening to a sweet lie that you want to believe. Like one of Paul Dunn's tall tales. You have to wonder about wishful tales of resurrection, eternal progression, families forever, etc. having the same effect on religious believers everywhere.

even if they don't use the same words to describe their emotional connection to their sectarian truth claims

Apologists try to exploit the fact that all religions have their own unique terminology. So the LDS use particular phrases, and catholics use different ones. But they're talking about the same thing.

It reminds me of one woman we tracted out on my mission, who shared what Mormons would call her "testimony" of the catholic church at length. She talked about how she was at mass, and suddenly glorious sunshine fell upon her, filling her with bright light. At that moment she knew she was where God wanted her to be - in the catholic church.

So did she use one specific phrase? "Is the catholic church the one true church?" No, why would she? That's not catholic terminology. So this allows Mormons to discount these nonmormon witnesses.

But I must add that many, if not most, LDS have testimonial events quite similar to this one. Often they're not actually praying the specific words they've been taught, but have some numinous experience, like this lady, which then they interpret to mean that the LDS church is "true". And that is exactly what people in other faiths do, if the idea of a specific church possessing specific authority is part of their beliefs.

But I am the exception :)

The other thing apologists love to say is that the feelings of the Holy Ghost are worlds greater than the standard "good feelings" they get when they see a moving movie, or hear a touching song.

Also, how many converts have come over from other religions claiming that the spirit they feel here is SOOO much more powerful than what they felt in the old religion. Unfortunately, I think that most people that leave Mormonism leave religion altogether, so we don't hear much of that from LDS apostates.

Scottie wrote:The other thing apologists love to say is that the feelings of the Holy Ghost are worlds greater than the standard "good feelings" they get when they see a moving movie, or hear a touching song.

Also, how many converts have come over from other religions claiming that the spirit they feel here is SOOO much more powerful than what they felt in the old religion. Unfortunately, I think that most people that leave Mormonism leave religion altogether, so we don't hear much of that from LDS apostates.

Maybe they say that because it's true?

The Nehor wrote:

Scottie wrote:The other thing apologists love to say is that the feelings of the Holy Ghost are worlds greater than the standard "good feelings" they get when they see a moving movie, or hear a touching song.

Also, how many converts have come over from other religions claiming that the spirit they feel here is SOOO much more powerful than what they felt in the old religion. Unfortunately, I think that most people that leave Mormonism leave religion altogether, so we don't hear much of that from LDS apostates.

Maybe they say that because it's true?

Perhaps, as the only Trump card in their hand, gifts of the spirit enjoy some level of exaggeration.

Nehor, most of us here had burning testimonies. We just now realize that these feelings are present in other areas of life as well, and are not exclusively tied to religion.

Additionally, LDS meetings do have a strong emotional component. Testimony bearing takes place in Elders quorum, relief society, sunday school, and in fast and testimony meeting. Maybe there are just more opportunities for publicly sharing emotion with one another.

The Nehor wrote:

Scottie wrote:The other thing apologists love to say is that the feelings of the Holy Ghost are worlds greater than the standard "good feelings" they get when they see a moving movie, or hear a touching song.

Also, how many converts have come over from other religions claiming that the spirit they feel here is SOOO much more powerful than what they felt in the old religion. Unfortunately, I think that most people that leave Mormonism leave religion altogether, so we don't hear much of that from LDS apostates.

Maybe they say that because it's true?

Maybe they think it's true because it has gratified their egos?

I was listening to the 1984 recording of the LDS endowment ceremony yesterday and one of the commentators made a good point, namely, that according to their own 'sacred' ceremony Satan/Lucifer can answer prayers.