With the least degree of allowance.....

[_Maxrep]

I don't get it now. I never really got it.

We are taught that God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. But why??? He creates us, his children, in his likeness, and then finds are behavior absolutely intolerable. Gods behavior was once intolerable as well! Remember he started off just like us. An omniscient God can deal with it. Get over yourself!

To set everything right, he requires that one of his creations sweep up the mess of the other creations. Why? As parents we recognize the imperfections in our children. Even though we are not anywhere near God status, we DEAL WITH IT. We don't require tit for tat at every turn with our kids, and they still learn and grow and improve.

[_truth dancer]

Well, Maxrep my friend... it is nonsense! (sigh)!

IMHO that is! ;-)

Going with this belief however... what about Joseph Smith?

What about all the not so great men who are living pretty sinful lives (from the LDS perspective), and who are in leadership positions, blessing others, claiming to be receiving messages from the divine?

Ya know?

~dancer~

[_Scottie]

This was one teaching that I REALLY took to heart as a kid in the LDS church. Whenever someone would say, "Oh, you don't have to be perfect" or "As long as you're on the right path, it's good enough", I would remember this scripture and still feel completely unworthy.

[_beastie]

God certainly seems to have a very wide allowance in regards to what sins he will tolerate in his prophets.

[_Maxrep]

And here's the other half I don't understand:

Then you have the atonement, which I don't understand, but it takes up the slack. Actually, it only takes up a small portion of the slack. If you remember, God now can only tolerate the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom. No visitations will be extended to the lesser kingdoms. Jesus, who already had to take care of one mess, is assigned visitation duties to the terrestrial world. The Holy Ghost is given the task of slummin' it from time to time in the Telestial kingdom. Low seniority I guess.

My understanding is that the vast majority of Gods creations will not reside in the celestial kingdom. What parent creates an environment of permanent emancipation?

[_Maxrep]

Going with this belief however... what about Joseph Smith?


~dancer~

It would be interesting to have a 3x5 card(or maybe much larger!) with a chronoligical listing of all the stunts Joseph pulled, starting off with his days as treasure hunter! I guess you just have to laugh.

[Guest]

I "grew up" in the Church if that is possible. I went to seminary, was an eagle scout, and went on a mission when I as nineteen. I came home after two months. I faked like I was sick because I didn't know what to do and I wasn't staying or I would have likely killed myself. I didn't know as I do now that I really needed to be on medication. The mission president decided that I should go home and rest, get better and come back. I was not released. After about two months home I was in a situation where I had sex for the first time. I went to the Bishop that night and told him what happened. He said that I needed to see the stake president that sunday and the Stake President told me that they needed to release me. About a month later I got a call that I needed to see the stake president again. He said Salt Lake had called and said techincally that I was a missionary when I sinned so a court needed to be held. I went through a court and was put on probationl. Well I sinned again and I had to meet with one of the stake president counselors about my probation and I told him what happened and he told me that people that do what I did are cast out; I had to go to another court that week and was excommunicated. I remember crying for at least an hour in the bathroom telling God I just wanted to die. This was July 1981, a couple months before I reached age twenty. I went to church for a while but then just faded away. I now look at what was going on with the early leaders of the Church and I say " what the hell". Good grief, I was just a kid who was told my little sex desire was a little train which was lie as it was more like a raging bull and it was sad as I look back because I didn't really understand what was going on with my body. I read about bank fraud, multiple sex partners during the year, attacking people and burning homes and bringing the goods back to the bishops store house, lies, lies and more lies and I'm just left speechless. Later as I kept in touch with my friends from the Church and we talked about our life, I found out one thing: I was the only honest one among us and I was the one on the outside looking in.

[_The Nehor]

I don't get it now. I never really got it.

We are taught that God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. But why??? He creates us, his children, in his likeness, and then finds are behavior absolutely intolerable. Gods behavior was once intolerable as well! Remember he started off just like us. An omniscient God can deal with it. Get over yourself!

To set everything right, he requires that one of his creations sweep up the mess of the other creations. Why? As parents we recognize the imperfections in our children. Even though we are not anywhere near God status, we DEAL WITH IT. We don't require tit for tat at every turn with our kids, and they still learn and grow and improve.

He can get over it. We can't. God is sinless. To go where he goes we must be the same. The atonement is retroactive. I don't know how it works but it wipes out the sin. In terms of eternity IT NEVER HAPPENED. That to me is amazing.

So why the big deal? Sinlessness is happiness. It's the innocence of childhood without the fears. It's the utter removal of any guilt at all. I was fortunate once to have the experience where I was asked to sacrifice something I thought I could never give up. When I finished God gave me a total blanket forgiveness for everything I had done to that point. For the next month I was in bliss all day and all night when I dreamed. Everything was optimism. There was nothing I couldn't do and I did some amazing things. Of course unfortunately it didn't last. I got my taste of heaven on Earth and I'm told heaven is better. I'm sold on the whole need to be sinless thing.

[_Scottie]

God is sinless.

The only reason God is sinless is because He makes the rules. That's like saying Henry the...ummm...shoot can't remember which one...the one that beheaded all of his wives anyways, didn't commit murder because he was king, and since the king makes the law, well, he can state that the law excuses the king from murder.

God may be sinless, but He sure is immoral, just like King Henry was.

[_The Nehor]

God is sinless.

The only reason God is sinless is because He makes the rules. That's like saying Henry the...ummm...shoot can't remember which one...the one that beheaded all of his wives anyways, didn't commit murder because he was king, and since the king makes the law, well, he can state that the law excuses the king from murder.

God may be sinless, but He sure is immoral, just like King Henry was.

I have to disagree there. First because I know him a little better than that.

Second, it wouldn't make sense at all. If God created us then we can hardly be more moral than he is. He can't make us greater than he is. You can argue that there is no God or that God has at least the moral faculties of the best human who ever lived. God can't be a monster.