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This topic crops up from time to time in the threads around here, and it seems to be a pretty typical response from exmos that you can't choose what to believe. I find this incredible given the fact that so many Mormons seemingly choose to believe in the church despite all the contrary evidence. How do you account for that? Are you trying to say they have no choice but to believe contrary to the evidence (assuming they are, of course, exposed to it).

Again, I have to emphasize that I don't think it's a very conscious choice. But for those things that a person simply can't know (matters of religion, the origin of the universe, etc etc), isn't a belief choice (at some level) implicit with these things? How do the beliefs get there if not chosen somehow?

Hey Schmo...

I'm one of those who believe that some belief is not a choice, but let me clarify.

I have a choice to either believe what seems/appears as reality to me, or I can chose to believe that my "reality," is not real but some sort of delusion or brain disorder or something.

For a few examples... I can believe that dinosaur bones are here due to dinosaurs actually living on the earth which makes sense to me due to having looked at dinosaur bones in the ground, seen evolution in action, and have at least a basic understanding of the history of life. OR I can decide that what makes sense to me is not reality and the real reality is that God placed them on the earth, six thousand years ago to trick us.

I can believe that Santa Clause is a story that has developed into fun ideas for children, OR I can choose to believe that my sense of reality (that reindeer can't fly for example), is not real and the truth is there is a man who flys around the world bringing gifts to all the good children of the world on the Winter Solstace. In spite of what seems possible or reasonable, my personal experiences of life are just wrong.

In other words... for ME, I do not think it is possible to believe things that contradict what seems real without believing that my reality (experiences), is not real.

Does that make sense?

Now... I do think people have a choice when what they are believing has no clear objective reality to it. For example, we do not know what, if any, happened before we appeared on the earth. So people can chose to believe there was a war in heaven, or there are multiple lives, or there was nothing, or whatever they want to make up.

But when something completely contradicts one's sense of reality I do not see how it is possible to believe it and remain sane.

Can someone make themselves truly believe the moon is made of cheese? Perhaps a few thousand years ago when they had no idea what indeed the moon was but today I think it is difficult if not impossible for most people.

In terms of believers (of any religion), I would suggest that what they believe fits with their reality. They may have had to completely alter a teaching or doctrine, or twist their understanding of a belief, but ultimately I assert their belief (in their minds), fits with how they experience the world.

For me, the teachings of the church do not fit with my sense of reality hence I cannot seem to make it fit into my brain, mind, or spirit as truth.

There may be those who truly can just decide to believe whatever they want... but I hold to the idea that unless I give up what feels like reality to me, I am limited in my choices!

:-)

~dancer~

"Most often, the believer is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the religious leader. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a believer to recognize a degree of responsibility for belief."

Hmmm... thanks for the response, TD.

Perhaps this is just a semantics argument and I'm splitting hairs here. It's starting to sound to me like people automatically equate "choosing" with "the conscious will to choose."

I totally agree that when you witness things like objects falling to the ground over and over, you can't really will yourself to not believe in gravity. I would never suggest that. Like I said before, I'm only really referring to what you termed things that have "no clear objective reality to it." And although how it fits into the larger scheme of things (in terms of personal belief about your sense of reality) definitely plays a part in what you believe, comfort most definitely also has to play an equally if not larger part.

No, I don't think most people wake up one day and say to themselves, "It would be easier for me if I just believed x" and then go on to do it (although I have no doubt that some have pulled it off). What I think happens is that people are confronted with a new piece of information, they may feel some discomfort processing it, and they unconsciously manipulate what they believe in order to reconcile that new thing (or perhaps manipulate the new thing in order to make it reconcile their current beliefs - I have little doubt it works both ways).

I mean, we all have pretty common experiences, and yet everyone's set of beliefs is as unique as they are. I just don't see how choice (at some level) is not at least part of the equation.

I can say that I cannot choose to believe some things, but I wouldn't try to argue that all belief is the result of choice.

For example, I personally cannot choose to believe that Noah's Flood really happened, because in my heart of hearts, I know it didn't. Any belief that I forced upon myself, contrary to this underlying conviction, would be a lie, and I'd know that. I likewise cannot choose to believe that the Book of Abraham is in fact true scripture from God, because in my heart of hearts I'm pretty darn sure Joseph Smith just made it up. I cannot choose to believe that Joseph Smith's sexual adventures with several dozen women were in fact commanded by a God who actually exists, because it's simply too obvious to me that they weren't.

On the other hand, I don't really choose to believe in Relativity, or Mathematics, or Geology. The belief in these things simply comes as the natural offspring of the consideration of lots of evidence that leads to these theoretical frameworks being valid.

What's interesting is that in the LDS mind, a virtual reality has been fashioned and shaped through long exposure and indoctrination, in which the belief in things like the validity of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, and even Joseph Smith's vast sexual experience, also flows fairly naturally from things taken to be true. For example, in the LDS virtual reality, since Joseph Smith is obviously and indisputably a true prophet, it is simply an obvious given that anything that would seem to impugn his prophetic calling must, without fail, either be a lie, or be mistaken and misconstrued, taken out of context, etc.

The conflict here is not between the facts about Joseph Smith and his various deeds and reality, but rather between LDS virtual reality, and reality. So long as LDS virtual reality is perceived as objective reality by LDS believers, conclusions that we view as sweeping Joseph Smith's deeds under the rug are in fact actually completely natural and sensible.

And for people to see that their virtual reality is not in fact in accord with external, real reality, is very, very difficult. It's the same reason why my mom's pizza was really awesome when I was growing up, but some pizza made by someone else's mom was crap, when to my friend, his mom's pizza was actually the best. It's what I grew up with, it's what I was used to, so it became the standard by which I judged other pizzas. In the same way, an LDS believer grows up surrounded by all this LDS "truth", and that becomes the standard by which other, competing ideas are judged. Everyone does it, not just LDS. I find it's very difficult for people to get to a state, let's call it a state of humility, where they are able to lay aside the biases of one's own custom, virtual reality and try to look at other ideas impartially and objectively. It's insanely difficult.

Some Schmo wrote: It's starting to sound to me like people automatically equate "choosing" with "the conscious will to choose."

Wasn't this in The Matrix?

Sethbag wrote:Everyone does it, not just LDS. I find it's very difficult for people to get to a state, let's call it a state of humility, where they are able to lay aside the biases of one's own custom, virtual reality and try to look at other ideas impartially and objectively. It's insanely difficult.

Exactly. Just try and get Schmo to admit that America isn't the best country on Earth. Many, MANY anti-Americans would say that they have mountains of evidence as to why America is a horrible country. But, Schmo will always hold on to his early childhood indoctrination that America is the best. He won't allow himself to step out of that and see that, maybe, JUST maybe, America isn't what he thinks it is. He has made the choice to believe that America is the best.

And, I know this isn't an apples to apples comparison, in that nobody is saying America is the only true country and all others are the whore of the Earth. I'm just pointing out that it is really hard to step out of that comfort zone and allow yourself to actually question whether this long standing belief is true or not. Cog dis is alive and well. I'm quite sure that I use it every day.

Scottie wrote:

Some Schmo wrote: It's starting to sound to me like people automatically equate "choosing" with "the conscious will to choose."

Wasn't this in The Matrix?

I'm not sure; maybe. Makes me want to watch it again though.

Sethbag, I get where you're coming from.

I guess one of the sticking points for me is the fact that there are stories of people who convince themselves of certain things in the face of contrary evidence. I know I've done this for myself on certain things.

For instance, back in my early 20's, I was really into the new age self-help book scene, and was listening to anything and everything I could get my hands on. I was going though the process of "re-parenting" myself after acknowledging that my Mormon parents didn't do a very good job, and I was certain there had to be a better way to look at things. A lot of what these guys said was crap, but certainly not all of it. Some of the common things these guys had to say were "your belief shapes your reality" and "whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right." The message here was that if you could alter your beliefs, it would change your reality. And guess what! It's true!

I remember hearing some guy saying, "If you want to be more confident, start believing and acting confident, and one day, you'll wake up a confident person." I did that and it totally worked for me. I went from being an extremely shy insecure person to someone who was, for the most part, pretty self-assured. I tell people this story and am regularly met with incredulity, as though they could never imagine me as an unconfident person. I made myself believe something that, at the time, wasn't true until it became true.

I view a belief in Mormonism the same way. Why do they have testimony meetings every month if not to convince people of something to believe? People spend time "working on their testimonies." What does that mean if not making yourself believe something you don't already believe?

Scottie wrote:

Sethbag wrote:Everyone does it, not just LDS. I find it's very difficult for people to get to a state, let's call it a state of humility, where they are able to lay aside the biases of one's own custom, virtual reality and try to look at other ideas impartially and objectively. It's insanely difficult.

Exactly. Just try and get Schmo to admit that America isn't the best country on Earth. Many, MANY anti-Americans would say that they have mountains of evidence as to why America is a horrible country. But, Schmo will always hold on to his early childhood indoctrination that America is the best. He won't allow himself to step out of that and see that, maybe, JUST maybe, America isn't what he thinks it is. He has made the choice to believe that America is the best.

And, I know this isn't an apples to apples comparison, in that nobody is saying America is the only true country and all others are the whore of the Earth. I'm just pointing out that it is really hard to step out of that comfort zone and allow yourself to actually question whether this long standing belief is true or not. Cog dis is alive and well. I'm quite sure that I use it every day.

I think you must be getting me mixed up with someone else. I never claimed that America was the best country on Earth. In fact, I was born and raised in Canada, man. I moved to the US when I was 31.

Some Schmo wrote:I think you must be getting me mixed up with someone else. I never claimed that America was the best country on Earth. In fact, I was born and raised in Canada, man. I moved to the US when I was 31.

Oops...You're right. It was PP in the "Testimony: An emotional lie" thread that was almost ready to fight me for saying America wasn't the best.

You and I went back and forth quite a bit in that thread, which is why I thought it was you initially.

My apologies.