Profound insights from MAD on Gay Marriage

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_Gadianton
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Profound insights from MAD on Gay Marriage

Post by _Gadianton »

Jwhitlock, over on MAD has some brilliant observations on gay marriage. Thought I'd take the liberty of responding over here. It's a subject close to me this month.

Is the above typically understood by gay men in general? Especially interesting to me was the comment concerning monogamous relationships generally not lasting very long among gay men.


I'm positive it's true. The way homosexuality has come into the mainstream is through counterculture movements. This isn't surprising at all.

I would see gay marriage as a non-monogamous institution contributing to the continuing undermining of marriage as a more permanent, exclusive bond.


If we are to assume that marriages are to be monogomous (now that's a big assumption, think really really hard whitlock, and others about marriage being mono-gamous - you know, "mono" means "one", right ok, we got that? but we'll take your hypocritical little definition at face value for now) then how would gay marriage fail to be a monogamous institution? What Whitlock "sees" makes no sense at all.

it is more an issue of rights or privileges under marriage law


I can't think, as a man, of any one thing a man can do, of his own free will, that will strip himselves of rights and privileges more so than by getting married. If gays are cheating each other and mixing things up all too much, then once they start paying alimony checks and dividing property, they might reconsider their decisions one way or another.

I will also say, that to an extent it can be viewed as a "privilage", so what if people do things just for the privilage? Why shouldn't they? I could go out and vote just because it's my right to, or because I'm bored, or because I think my opinion matters. But the vote counts equally well in all cases. In the case of marriage however, they'll learn fast once they start cutting alimony checks.

It appears that there are not a large number of gay couples that take advantage of it


There aren't many people who take advantage of energy credits for installing low-e windows, or credits for replacing older toilets with low-w consuming alternatives. Does that mean the programs should be scrapped, or might it mean they should be promoted better?

If it is admitted that gay monogamous permanent relationships by nature are rare at best, the Church's stance against gay marriage, at least from this angle, makes a lot of sense.


It actually makes no sense whatsoever. To see why, take the prodigal son as an example. He parties every night, he's sleeping with a different woman every week, maybe he does drugs, he's all things considered, up to no good. And what are his parents thinking? "Oh, I wish Henry could just get a job, find a nice girl and settle down." Well, if Henry is gay, why wouldn't it be an excellent goal to shoot toward a stable life and a monogamous relationship? Wouldn't it be terrific for him to overcome the even further obstacles thrown in the path by de facto gay culture and set his sights on marriage and commitment? Instead of pushing gays further into the risky behavior on the fringes, why not promote a higher ideal that they can take a part in?

Marriage is not the big "privilage" and "right" that Mormon apologists claim that it is. It's rather, a horrendously risky commitment that screws over as many people as it benefits. I would like to know, from the apologists, what on earth the "privilages" of being married are - the legally or socially bestowed ones? The biggest one is this:

commiting your life to one person is a horrendous undertaking, it's hard work, and it's usually not a party but the hope, and the only hope, is to find some meaning beyond a job and mere consumerism, there something about connecting with someone that seems to fill a void that nothing else can. But it's true that the odds aren't all that great it will pay off. Instead of being a privilage, marriage is a goal to shoot towards, a difficult and risky one, but one that could very well be worth it with the right sacrifices from both people. Given the difficulty of this choice, a marriage is culturally a symbol of the approval of family and friends. The ceremony is a time where everyone gets together, knowing how hard this road will be, supports the couple, and tries to give them a solid start in the right direction.

Imagine, if Fred and Bob, instead of, in their hurt and confusion running off to the courthouse to go out and show the world that they are people too, with no support whatsoever, imagine if Fred and Bob's parents gave them a ceremony, a cake, and encouragement and advice throughout their relationship. Imagine if somehow family and friends could legitimately accept their relationship. Wouldn't they have quite a bit more chance at a commited, long-term, and monogamous life together?

One of my best friends, who was gay, died last month of a drug overdose. Just before the end, he was finally coming to terms with who he was, and accepting that he didn't have a place in the church, that he needed to find a partner, and a different spiritual path. The problem is, it took 10 years of rebelling (post mission and college) to figure this out. By that time, the addictions were already too deep and he lost the battle. Other than myself, I blame three entities:

1) him. for being too weak. for being dishonest with himself in many ways.
2) the party culture that also happened to be part of the gay culture he got involved with.
3) the Mormon church, for its complete inability to realize that they're basically just a bunch of bigots caught up in protecting what they've grown comfortable with in life. The Q of 12 for being geriatric fools and completely out of touch with reality.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Every now and then it still surprises me that Mormonism has turned into such an oppressor, when it was once so oppressed. Didn't it - as far as institutionalized memory and "lessons" - learn anything about the problem of government intrusion into the private marital habits of fringe groups?

Marriage is the triumph of hope over reason. As much as I love my boyfriend, I do wonder sometimes if I'll ever get the nerve to try it again, even with him.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

I just finished reading that thread.


*big eye roll*
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Ya gotta love this line:

P.S. And I take umbrage at "homosexual marriage." There's simply, no such thing.


(pacman)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

And isn't it funny to see members of a religion once so persecuted for refusing to follow the majority-defined concept of marriage now insist that they have the RIGHT to define marriage for EVERYONE?

Mormons only have a sense of history when they're relishing their persecuted history as evidence that their church is "true". Otherwise, history apparently means nothing.

(speaking in generalizations, of course, realizing that Mormons can, and do, defy these generalizations, I apologize to them, I'm speaking about the majority)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

another good one liner by jwhitlock

Again, any claim that lesbians are more sexually monogamous than heterosexuals is most likely suspect.


Just a divine pronouncement on high.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

And I must say I love Katherine the Great. I'd just about go gay for her. ;)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

beastie wrote:And I must say I love Katherine the Great. I'd just about go gay for her. ;)



Most definitely!
_Gadianton
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Post by _Gadianton »

beastie wrote:another good one liner by jwhitlock

Again, any claim that lesbians are more sexually monogamous than heterosexuals is most likely suspect.


Just a divine pronouncement on high.


and it's not suspect, but "most likely" suspect, right ;)

For those who don't want to read my long post, the short summary is, marriage isn't a reward for monogamy, but an institution to help people be, among other things monogamous. This is something the apologists will never understand. If they want less seediness among gays then they should promote gay marriage.

For all the 21 year-old BYU-Idaho students out there who are attracted to women and marry the first female that's willing, congratulations, you've accomplished exactly nothing. And you've just entered into a tough contract, you're not getting a reward for merely following your unit.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

beastie wrote:another good one liner by jwhitlock

Again, any claim that lesbians are more sexually monogamous than heterosexuals is most likely suspect.


Just a divine pronouncement on high.


For what it is worth, lesbians are on average significantly more promiscuous than heterosexuals. They aren't quite as promiscuous as their gay male counterparts, but they are one of the demographics that exceed the general heterosexual population. He might have just asserted this, and I might be doing so right now, but if you look into it, you'll find that this is what the research bears out. Exactly what that means and whether than has any impact on the same-sex marriage debate is a separate question, but this is a fact.
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