Random Question...how far must it go?

[_Sam Harris]

I have a question:

When a person has dealt with extreme pain or abuse in a situation, and they spend a period of time acting out either towards that abuser or towards a proxy (something that represents that abuse or reminds them of that abuse), at what point are they held accountable for their actions, and ultimately asked to be responsible for what they say and do?

One of the sickest things to me is a person who abuses because he or she was abused. I was abused, and yet I do not spend my days lashing out at my mother or those who represent her. And it's not because I'm weak, it's because I love myself enough to walk with integrity. I may write about it, but ultimately I will not harm her or her kin. It's not the higher path to take. And I won't go hurting other people because I'm too weak to face my issues with my mother (which I'm not).

I've just seen a few instances in which someone is being coddled because of "horrible" experiences while that person seeks to demean others. And that person isn't unable to control themselves...yet they're not really being asked to either.

I could see defending someone who had no control over their behavior, but defending someone who knows they're doing wrong and revels in it?

At what point do you become accountable, or must everyone feel your wrath until the end of your days because someone hurt you?

Half of me thinks, "Gee, I wish I had that type of bravado...", and the other half of me thinks such behavior is pathetic. Sure, it would be nice to slap the shiznit out of someone sometimes, when my fam is acting up, but I'd just smack them...not people who necessarily agreed with them or are close to them. And I think it's sick to lash out at people who represent something you don't like, just because there are people close to you whom you love who are in the same situation, but you can't deal with that, so you just go spitting on random human beings you've never met because of their seeming relationship to your pain.

Just thoughts...move the thread if need be.

[_Jason Bourne]

I have a question:

When a person has dealt with extreme pain or abuse in a situation, and they spend a period of time acting out either towards that abuser or towards a proxy (something that represents that abuse or reminds them of that abuse), at what point are they held accountable for their actions, and ultimately asked to be responsible for what they say and do?

One of the sickest things to me is a person who abuses because he or she was abused. I was abused, and yet I do not spend my days lashing out at my mother or those who represent her. And it's not because I'm weak, it's because I love myself enough to walk with integrity. I may write about it, but ultimately I will not harm her or her kin. It's not the higher path to take. And I won't go hurting other people because I'm too weak to face my issues with my mother (which I'm not).

I've just seen a few instances in which someone is being coddled because of "horrible" experiences while that person seeks to demean others. And that person isn't unable to control themselves...yet they're not really being asked to either.

I could see defending someone who had no control over their behavior, but defending someone who knows they're doing wrong and revels in it?

At what point do you become accountable, or must everyone feel your wrath until the end of your days because someone hurt you?

Half of me thinks, "Gee, I wish I had that type of bravado...", and the other half of me thinks such behavior is pathetic. Sure, it would be nice to slap the shiznit out of someone sometimes, when my fam is acting up, but I'd just smack them...not people who necessarily agreed with them or are close to them. And I think it's sick to lash out at people who represent something you don't like, just because there are people close to you whom you love who are in the same situation, but you can't deal with that, so you just go spitting on random human beings you've never met because of their seeming relationship to your pain.

Just thoughts...move the thread if need be.

This is a tough question and I really do not have an answer. However, for me, due to some things in my life that I think has driven some bad behavior, or at least made me more prone to it, in the way I think, act towards others and so on, it has taken work and a good counselor to get me on track to better emotional well being.

Wow. That was a long sentence.

These things are complex and I have found that when it comes to the human mind and what makes us tick it is partly genetics, partly our family of origin and what things happened there and partly our choosing. I am slow to judge others because this is so complex. But I am also impatient with those how use abuse and so forth as a crutch and will not get the help they need to move on and break the cycle of abusive bad behavior.

Not sure if that it what you are looking for.

[_Mercury]

It goes as far as reality dictates. that's how far.

Those who cry foul at those who call b***s*** are not unwarranted in attacking others. Those who balk and cry and moan after being "attacked" need to grow the hell up.

[consiglieri]

Hey Bond,

Glad someone finally decided to at least take a look at the question. I don't see why it's so hard to just consider the issue, and think before you speak. Some folks act like they're the only ones on earth in pain, and it's ok to just lash out at that which they percieve to be a threat. I don't agree with this.

This is a tough question and I really do not have an answer. However, for me, due to some things in my life that I think has driven some bad behavior, or at least made me more prone to it, in the way I think, act towards others and so on, it has taken work and a good counselor to get me on track to better emotional well being.

Wow. That was a long sentence.

LOL, you're like me with those long sentences. I don't know how I make it through English class. And I agree with you, when you come across situations that are triggering the worst in you, there's a choice to be made. Either you feed into it and lie to yourself that you're ok, or you choose to face whatever it is that has brought you so much anguish. It's not wrong to be royally enraged at situations that have hurt you, or even people...I just don't understand it when those who have been hurt choose to continue to strike out at what I call the "proxy". What good does it do you, past a cynical laugh at someone else's expense? How have you moved forward in life?

There are a few people close to me in this situation, they're upset about something terrible that happened to them, yet they will not do the real work in facing the issue. They won't do like you and I, they won't seek a good counselor, they won't see that ultimately they aren't happy, they just cop out and go the cheap way of abusing others to make up for their own pain.

Prime example: my mom. She won't face those things that are hurting her, and her decision to stay within the bounds of that pain. But hear her tell it, she's "fine". Ok, then why do you act like a b**ch whenever your mother or husband comes around?

I think that it's very transparent when a person is easily triggered by a person, situation, religion, etc...yet claims to be whole and healed. With regards to my experiences with the church, just because I'm over it now doesn't mean that it wasn't painful. I had learned that Black wasn't beautiful, and ultimately, from the attitudes of those I dealt with, that there was something wrong with me, and I couldn't change it. I had learned to hate and be ashamed of myself...

But I made the conscious choice to let that go. And that is why I do not spend any time any longer discussing those days. They're gone. I still have LDS "family" in the form of my friends, and sometimes we don't agree. I'm off to SLC in December to be as close as an exmo can be to my close friend who is getting married. Who knows what subjects may come up? Overall, my loved ones in the church respect my choices, and still see my path as worth something. But I think if I spent a whole lot of time discussing that which I disagreed with, or going over that period of time in which I was miserable in the church, I don't think that I'd have the relationship with them that I do. What they do is their choice, I've made mine, and since they've respected it, I feel that I can do no less than the same to them. I can only control my stance in relation to situations, not necessarily the situations themselves. I don't see why some folks do not get this, yet they claim to be so happy and at peace....and somehow manage to eventually garner pity for their sufferings.

LOL! I'm sorry, but I ain't buying that. I was abused too, horribly. I'm still healing, but I made the choice to heal. Sorry slim, I'm not going to suffer for the rest of my life because of what someone did to me, lying to myself and the world that I'm ok. I've seen folks do that, and they don't convince as many people as they think they do, my Mom being the prime example. My dad was another, he died in denial about his issues...and I suspect my poor mother will do the same.

And what's more, I pity my abusers. When I think of how pathetic their lives have been, and what got them there, I can't stay angry, I can't hate forever. I cry about it sometimes. Why did they have to suffer, which continued the pattern onto me? Why did they have to be under the influences that hurt them and made them hurt?

These things are complex and I have found that when it comes to the human mind and what makes us tick it is partly genetics, partly our family of origin and what things happened there and partly our choosing. I am slow to judge others because this is so complex. But I am also impatient with those how use abuse and so forth as a crutch and will not get the help they need to move on and break the cycle of abusive bad behavior.

I'm with you on this one, the soul and mind are delicate, and you never know what a person has suffered. Which is partly why I can even think of forgiving my parents. I don't know if I completely have, forgiveness in and of itself is a confusing thing to me. When I think I'm over something with them, something else pops up. But when I hear of what they went through as children, I can't be angry forever.

And I agree, those who choose to abuse, citing what they went through are cowards. Grow the hell up, seriously. I'd be less than worthless if I decided to strip my children naked and beat them mercilessly because it was done to me. And that's the excuse I heard when going through it: "My father didn't beat any clothes, so neither will I". Does the pain of those days, which still sticks with me justify my raising my hand towards nother? HELL TO THE NO!

I find it hard to respect those who insist on taking people, beliefs, and situations and lining them up like those floating ducks at the carnival, just to pick them off one by one, because they're too scared to face the deeper issues of what their abuses have done to them.

12 years of therapy...and I ain't done yet. Do I grow weary? Of course. But I think of who and where I'd be had I never walked into my guidance counselor's office my freshman year in high school. And I think of all I am and can do now...I'd never go back.

I'm no heroine, I don't really see myself as strong...which is why I have no patience for the copouts, and have no problem calling them for what they are...

Not sure if that it what you are looking for.

That was exactly what I was looking for. But with regards to the situation that has sparked the journey of many to this board who are out of the church, it's easier to focus on the "church needing to change", and all the factors external, rather than thinking about what needs to be done to heal internally, and ultimately find joy. WTF, I sound like Wade. Mom slipped something in my coffee this morning...

There's only so much you can do to influence people an institutions, and once you've said your peace, I think it's best to work on internal peace, instead of sounding like a broken record playing a badly written "kill the cops" hip-hop song.

Thanks for considering the question, Bond.

[_karl61]

Between ages ten and twenty I carried a lot of back packs; ones that my friends on my street never had to. By the age of twenty I was a pychological basket case. Help did not come for another twenty years. Sometimes I don't think it's fair but in the long run I see the person that I'm becoming and sometimes I think that God has a plan for all of us to grow into something good and our circumstances help that plan come to existence. It's innate to look for a cause to todays feelings or troubles. Our society proceeds with certain acts based on the past. We are at War. There is a criminal Justice stystem. Holding on to the past is presented many times to us each and everyday. The best way for someone to let go of the past is to see someone that was harmed and let it go and now lives another life - the good life. We all need mentors but few to almost none get them. For me I just held on to a dream.

[_Sam Harris]

It goes as far as reality dictates. that's how far.

Those who cry foul at those who call b***s*** are not unwarranted in attacking others. Those who balk and cry and moan after being "attacked" need to grow the hell up.

You sound so happy. Ironically though, your 2,000+ posts really don't match what's below. You need to think on that instead of always lashing out. Perhaps there are people whom you see as enemies who just really want you to find joy...or at least get the below back:

If you are currently Mormon and considering leaving the organization, also consider your happiness is greater outside the faith. Once you leave the world opens up to you. Your not angry at everything around you, your worry disappears completely. Its the best decision I ever made for myself.

You don't bring across the above sentiment, Merc. You can say all you want to about my character, Nehor's Bond's anyone who disagrees with you, but I guarantee you, we're happier than you are...and it's not because we're disillusioned, it's because we're whole.

Can you grasp that?

[_Sam Harris]

Between ages ten and twenty I carried a lot of back packs; ones that my friends on my street never had to. By the age of twenty I was a pychological basket case. Help did not come for another twenty years. Sometimes I don't think it's fair but in the long run I see the person that I'm becoming and sometimes I think that God has a plan for all of us to grow into something good and our circumstances help that plan come to existence. It's innate to look for a cause to todays feelings or troubles. Our society proceeds with certain acts based on the past. We are at War. There is a criminal Justice stystem. Holding on to the past is presented many times to us each and everyday. The best way for someone to let go of the past is to see someone that was harmed and let it go and now lives another life - the good life. We all need mentors but few to almost none get them. For me I just held on to a dream.

In a book that I was reading, a good point was made. Holding onto resentment only hurts you. The people who have harmed you have probably forgotten about the incident and gone on with their lives.

I commend you for making the move to healing, even though it took a while. I think that some people make the mistake of holding onto pain, thinking it's too late to start over. The day before you die is not too late, it's never too late.

I'm still struggling with the circumstances shaping us, I think there are many on here, even the most vitriolic, who have valid reasons to ask, "why me?". I wouldn't take that from anyone. But I would warn that one might not get the answer to that question...I haven't gotten it yet.

Holding onto dreams is one of the best things you can do. :-) It's what kept me alive. I'm actually surprised that those close to me have noticed this, they say I smile alot, but all I ever saw was my pain. I don't like to project that onto anyone, so I usually don't talk about the deeper things with those close to me, but I guess that desire not to spread hurt culminated in a personality that folks saw as joyful and resilient. I'm grateful for that...

Thank you, as well for answering the question. If I don't end up wording them in a complicated way, I think I often end up asking questions that people just don't want to answer. I really appreciate your input. And I'm sure others will, as well.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Between ages ten and twenty I carried a lot of back packs; ones that my friends on my street never had to. By the age of twenty I was a pychological basket case. Help did not come for another twenty years. Sometimes I don't think it's fair but in the long run I see the person that I'm becoming and sometimes I think that God has a plan for all of us to grow into something good and our circumstances help that plan come to existence. It's innate to look for a cause to todays feelings or troubles. Our society proceeds with certain acts based on the past. We are at War. There is a criminal Justice stystem. Holding on to the past is presented many times to us each and everyday. The best way for someone to let go of the past is to see someone that was harmed and let it go and now lives another life - the good life. We all need mentors but few to almost none get them. For me I just held on to a dream.

Like your thoughts styleguy!

[_barrelomonkeys]

In a book that I was reading, a good point was made. Holding onto resentment only hurts you. The people who have harmed you have probably forgotten about the incident and gone on with their lives.

Such truth to that!

I'm still struggling with the circumstances shaping us, I think there are many on here, even the most vitriolic, who have valid reasons to ask, "why me?". I wouldn't take that from anyone. But I would warn that one might not get the answer to that question...I haven't gotten it yet.

I've already found the answer to that. The answer is "why not?" Was I not strong enough to carry on? Did I not grow, live, change? Of course I did. Thankful now that it was me. I handled it. I could.

Holding onto dreams is one of the best things you can do. :-) It's what kept me alive. I'm actually surprised that those close to me have noticed this, they say I smile alot, but all I ever saw was my pain. I don't like to project that onto anyone, so I usually don't talk about the deeper things with those close to me, but I guess that desire not to spread hurt culminated in a personality that folks saw as joyful and resilient. I'm grateful for that...

As you should be! I find that such an admirable quality and those that question such a quality always leave me wondering why they are bothered by it. The ability to recognize pain and see it in others and be sensitive is a quality that I find lacking often in our world today. You are a shining example of overcoming adversity and walking away with the strength to recognize that you shape yourself (and how you chose to treat your fellow humans), not your past.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Between ages ten and twenty I carried a lot of back packs; ones that my friends on my street never had to. By the age of twenty I was a pychological basket case. Help did not come for another twenty years. Sometimes I don't think it's fair but in the long run I see the person that I'm becoming and sometimes I think that God has a plan for all of us to grow into something good and our circumstances help that plan come to existence. It's innate to look for a cause to todays feelings or troubles. Our society proceeds with certain acts based on the past. We are at War. There is a criminal Justice stystem. Holding on to the past is presented many times to us each and everyday. The best way for someone to let go of the past is to see someone that was harmed and let it go and now lives another life - the good life. We all need mentors but few to almost none get them. For me I just held on to a dream.

Like your thoughts styleguy!

I like his thoughts, too, Book of Mormon! They're very wise.

KA