Looking for some documentation

[_Scottie]

My girlfriend and I are in a battle about whether you should follow anything and everything a prophet says just because he's the prophet and he said it.

I've tried to relay the mopologist view on this, that you should take the words of the prophet, pray about them and then let the spirit tell you if it is true or not. I was making progress until she learned in Sunday School yesterday that we should always follow the prophet. Apparently the teacher had some quotes and scriptures to back this up.

So I need some references to back up my argument.

Can anyone help me out?

[_harmony]

My girlfriend and I are in a battle about whether you should follow anything and everything a prophet says just because he's the prophet and he said it.

I've tried to relay the mopologist view on this, that you should take the words of the prophet, pray about them and then let the spirit tell you if it is true or not. I was making progress until she learned in Sunday School yesterday that we should always follow the prophet. Apparently the teacher had some quotes and scriptures to back this up.

So I need some references to back up my argument.

Can anyone help me out?

Now that is scary.

[_karl61]

I think the dream of having a more open and friendly church is just a dream. when I heard that missionaries would now live with members I thought that the grip is tightening; more adoring history and more control. Now back to normal programming.

[_Inconceivable]

So I need some references to back up my argument.

Can anyone help me out?

Scottie,

The long and the short of it is that if you disagree with a living prophet after receiving a witness from the holy ghost that his counsel is incorrect, means that you were deceived by Satan.

You don't ask God if what the prophet says is true, you ask God to soften your heart enough to follow him:

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 2:16)

Best of luck.

[_Runtu]

You know, I started looking at library.LDS.org to find something, anything, to help you out. What I came up with was a hundred talks about following the prophet without question. There was one by some guy about how "blind obedience" is really "faith obedience." When you have enough trust in the Lord, you'll obey the prophet without thinking about it.

Good luck, but I'd say your girlfriend has a lot more support from church leaders.

Just in case you're interested, here's what I found. Scary.

One of the sneaky ploys of the adversary is to have us believe that unquestioning obedience to the principles and commandments of God is blind obedience. His goal is to have us believe that we should be following our own worldly ways and selfish ambitions. This he does by persuading us that “blindly” following the prophets and obeying the commandments is not thinking for ourselves. He teaches that it is not intelligent to do something just because we are told to do so by a living prophet or by prophets who speak to us from the scriptures.

Our unquestioning obedience to the Lord’s commandments is not blind obedience. President Boyd K. Packer in the April conference of 1983 taught us about this: “Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. … We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see” (“Agency and Control,” Ensign, May 1983, 66).

We might call this “faith obedience.”

[_Zoidberg]

My girlfriend and I are in a battle about whether you should follow anything and everything a prophet says just because he's the prophet and he said it.

I've tried to relay the mopologist view on this, that you should take the words of the prophet, pray about them and then let the spirit tell you if it is true or not. I was making progress until she learned in Sunday School yesterday that we should always follow the prophet. Apparently the teacher had some quotes and scriptures to back this up.

So I need some references to back up my argument.

Can anyone help me out?

I have a suggestion: instead of giving her references, ask her questions.

First, find out whether she is willing to only unquestioningly obey (1)GBH or (1)all the prophets. If it's the latter, show her how the prophets have contradicted each other over the years. Shouldn't be too hard.

If it's the former, it's going to be trickier. Find out if she thinks GBH takes precedence over scriptures/dead prophets. If so, then the scriptures or quotes from dead prophets matter less than what GBH says, right? So, basically, if he says something that's in contradiction with the scriptures (shouldn't be too hard to find, since the scriptures contradict each other, for the most part), would she follow? Unquestioningly? But since the scriptures and dead prophets are put aside, circular reasoning kicks in, and she will have to admit that the source of the claim that GBH should always be followed is GBH himself.

Now, the mantra goes like this:

a) the prophet will never lead the Church astray;
b) even if he does, God will bless you for following.

If she recites those two things to you, ask her what the source is. Dead prophets? They don't count, if only GBH should be followed at this time. Other GAs? They are not the prophet, either. Therefore, the mantra might not be applicable to this day and age, or it might just be some GA's personal opinion (since the prophet is the only one who always speaks God's will for this generation) She must ultimately admit circular reasoning. Hopefully, it will make her think.

Tell her the SS teacher is not the GBH. GBH didn't write the manual, either. So an SS lesson is not an authoritative source.

As for the references, try these: D&C 107:81-84:

81 There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church.
82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the acommon council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;
83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.
84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the ajustice and the blaws of God, that all things may be done in corder and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

If the president of the Church would never lead us astray, why would God give specific instructions on how to hold a trial over him?

JST Mark9:44-48:

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out. 47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Oh, God.

I thought you broke up with Mormon chic? Does she know you're a complete unbeliever, Scottie? Or are you still feigning interest in the church so she'll date you?

Ditch the Mormon already and find a suitable girlfriend who will like you for who you are, Hanes briefs and all.

KA

[_Scottie]

You know, I started looking at library.LDS.org to find something, anything, to help you out. What I came up with was a hundred talks about following the prophet without question. There was one by some guy about how "blind obedience" is really "faith obedience." When you have enough trust in the Lord, you'll obey the prophet without thinking about it.

Good luck, but I'd say your girlfriend has a lot more support from church leaders.

Just in case you're interested, here's what I found. Scary.

One of the sneaky ploys of the adversary is to have us believe that unquestioning obedience to the principles and commandments of God is blind obedience. His goal is to have us believe that we should be following our own worldly ways and selfish ambitions. This he does by persuading us that “blindly” following the prophets and obeying the commandments is not thinking for ourselves. He teaches that it is not intelligent to do something just because we are told to do so by a living prophet or by prophets who speak to us from the scriptures.

Our unquestioning obedience to the Lord’s commandments is not blind obedience. President Boyd K. Packer in the April conference of 1983 taught us about this: “Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. … We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see” (“Agency and Control,” Ensign, May 1983, 66).

We might call this “faith obedience.”

This is what I thought too. You always hear the mopologists say not to follow blindly, but where are they getting that from?? I couldn't find anything.

Zoidberg, that is a pretty good argument. However, I have to be careful here. I don't want to start laying on the logic too thick. She is deeply ingrained and too much contention will do more damage than good. She'll just turn more TBM rather than start thinking for herself.

I know that she believe that a living prophet supercedes a past one, so I can't use examples where past prophets have contradicted each other. Continuing revelation and such.

Maybe I'll post this over on MAD and see what response I get.

[_silentkid]

My girlfriend and I are in a battle about whether you should follow anything and everything a prophet says just because he's the prophet and he said it.

I've tried to relay the mopologist view on this, that you should take the words of the prophet, pray about them and then let the spirit tell you if it is true or not. I was making progress until she learned in Sunday School yesterday that we should always follow the prophet. Apparently the teacher had some quotes and scriptures to back this up.

So I need some references to back up my argument.

Can anyone help me out?

I've got a few good quotes that I'll post when I get home tonight; I'm at work right now and don't have access to them.

[_Zoidberg]

Scottie, I know it's sad, and I don't know your girlfriend, but I would have to go with Kimberly Ann on this one. If she won't like you for who you are, briefs and all, now, if you have to put on an act to talk to her, it's likely not going to end well. And if your relationship becomes more serious and she finds out the depths of your unbelief, she might panic and dump you, remembering countless YW lessons about getting married in the temple and dumping boyfriends who won't be able to take her there (there is actully a lesson on that, trust me, and it seems that your GF is easily impressed by what she hears at church); you never know with deeply ingrained TBMs. I got dumped when I was a gentile for no good reason and made to feel like an unworthy piece of crap. It was a very bad experience. I know giving advice is stupid, but life has shown that it is a very likely outcome when you're dating a TBM while not being one yourself.