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ay and Charity have been battling their hearts out on the front lines to make the case for the scholarliness of the Book of Mormon and open-mindedness towards the Book of Mormon as real history. Scratch's thread exposes the fact that not only is there no such thing as Book of Mormon scholarship in the real academic world, but the "scholars" of this imaginary discipline aren't even really trying to make a break into mainstream. In fact, there is a humorous implication we can glean from Scratch's thread and Dr. Peterson's quotes there. There aren't new and exciting digs everyday to analyze, and in the boredom that no doubt sets in from rehashing the same old topics over and over and looking for new angles and perspective to analyze the same source materials, the academy strays into territory like the religious message of Madonna's latest video. Yet even in a climate of scholarly boredom, where it might seem "anything goes", the Book of Mormon still can't manage to find its niche! It must really be a laugh!

I think Ray is more "open minded" than Charity, and I think both are far more open minded than BYU is, and that they both are trying for too much, more than the church or BYU does, when elevating Book of Mormon apologetic works to the status of serious scholarship. Let me begin by pointing out that Ray is open to a lot of fringe ideas, UFOs, OBE's, and a lot of things that I'll wager Charity is a little more cautious on. I will also point out that BYU is not the great open-minded university that hears out all ideas. What happened to that recent, very bright, mechanical engineering professor how had some alternate views on 9/11? I'd be curious, if Ray were to attend BYU and seek a graduate degree, if there would be any department existing there which would OK a thesis project on virtually any topic Ray has an interest in. I'm pretty sure BYU is every bit as closed-minded as every other institution in the nation nowdays, perhaps even more so in order to compensate for the one little area they at first glance appear, due to their religious views, to let slide, Mormon religious and scripture studies.

Can I point out a couple of things about BYU, though? BYU has very good engineering programs, business, law, computer science, and the real pragmatic stuff. But BYU is ran by a church with a modern day prophet, and with all the access to religious truth it has, revelation, and the guidence of the Holy Spirit, there is no scholarly religious training, only institute classes. You can't even get a graduate degree in philosophy (despite the very good faculty they have). Isn't that a little odd? Rest assured Ray, and others, if you were to go to BYU, not even the Lord's university, which by the way sponsors the "maxwell institute" has a track available where you could get a thesis project on a Mormon topic other than history. Many, many years ago I think BYU did allow it. I'd love a Mormon to correct me and show me I'm wrong, really, I would. That would be even better ammo. So my point is that not even BYU recognizes a field of "Book of Mormon scholarship".

Tell me this Charity and Ray, psychology is a real established science, right? (Charity is one, that's why I picked it) Is there a discipline within psychology that you'd consider very scholarly, yet that no institution on the planet offers a formal course offering in relation to? No possibility of a masters or phd? I find it incredible that not even the Lord's university offers formal coursework in Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham studies. Why wouldn't they? Every other professional institution on the planet has an established way to archive and pass down the knowledge to the next generation. Is BYU scared that if it ever granted a phd for evidences of the historical reality of the Book of Abraham or Book of Mormon that it would be really, really laughed at? Who knows. "The Maxwell Institute is, then, a hobby horse and vanity press and its contributions are mere apologetics, not scholarship.

I would request the apologists on this board to understand that at the very, very minimum, until your own University has the guts to ratify "Book of Mormon scholarship" as such by a degree offering, that you refrain from requesting the rest of the world from viewing it as something other than hobby horse apologetics.

Gadianton wrote:The Maxwell Institute is, then, a hobby horse and vanity press and its contributors are mere apologists, not scholars.

In order to prevent the response of "so and so has a Ph.D. and is therefore a scholar," etc., I respectfully suggest that the above sentence ought to be reworded, "The Maxwell Institute is, then, a hobby horse and vanity press and its contributions are mere apologetics, not scholarship."

Since many of the contributors are, indeed, scholars in their "day job" fields.

Gadianton wrote:I would request the apologists on this board to understand that at the very, very minimum, until your own University has the guts to ratify "Book of Mormon scholarship" as such by a degree offering, that you refrain from requesting the rest of the world from viewing it as something other than hobby horse apologetics.

This is an interesting concept that I confess I've never thought of quite like this. I guess I always assumed that Book of Mormon Studies already was a discipline at BYU. I never attended school there, so have never really looked at their catalog or degree offerings.

Why do you suppose this is true? Why wouldn't a church university offer a degree in its own theology?

harmony wrote:
This is an interesting concept that I confess I've never thought of quite like this. I guess I always assumed that Book of Mormon Studies already was a discipline at BYU. I never attended school there, so have never really looked at their catalog or degree offerings.

Why do you suppose this is true? Why wouldn't a church university offer a degree in its own theology?

as far as I know, they only offer a degree in religious education, which is for people who want to teach seminary. We did have classes in the Book of Mormon and other scriptures, but these were not serious classes but more like Institute faith-promoting classes.

Runtu wrote:

harmony wrote:
This is an interesting concept that I confess I've never thought of quite like this. I guess I always assumed that Book of Mormon Studies already was a discipline at BYU. I never attended school there, so have never really looked at their catalog or degree offerings.

Why do you suppose this is true? Why wouldn't a church university offer a degree in its own theology?

as far as I know, they only offer a degree in religious education, which is for people who want to teach seminary. We did have classes in the Book of Mormon and other scriptures, but these were not serious classes but more like Institute faith-promoting classes.

Do they offer in depth classes in the Old Testament? The New Testament? World-wide religions? Classes that progress to a degree in Biblical Studies?

harmony wrote:
Do they offer in depth classes in the Old Testament? The New Testament? World-wide religions? Classes that progress to a degree in Biblical Studies?

Here's the entire course list for religious education:

*121, 122. Introduction to the Book of Mormon. (2:2:0 ea.) F, W, Sp, Su Honors and Independent Study also.

Sequential study of the doctrines, principles, and narrative of the Book of Mormon. RelA 121 covers 1 Nephi through Alma 29. RelA 122 covers Alma 30 through Moroni 10. Returned missionaries may not register for sections numbered lower than 100.

192R. Special Topics in Ancient Scripture. (1:3:Arr.:Arr. ea.) On Democrat.

Special topics in ancient scripture for BYU Travel Study participants.

*211, 212. The New Testament. (2:2:0 ea.) F, W, Sp, Su Honors and Independent Study also.

RelA 211 deals with the Gospels. RelA 212 deals with the Book of Acts, the Epistles, and the Apocalypse (Revelation).

301, 302. The Old Testament. (2:2:0 ea.) F, W, Sp, Su Honors and Independent Study also.

Introduction to the structure and teachings of the Old Testament. RelA 301 covers Genesis through 2 Samuel. RelA 302 covers 1 Kings through Malachi.

304. Writings of Isaiah. (2:2:0) F, W Honors and Independent Study also.

Historical, prophetic, doctrinal, and literary values of Isaiah, emphasizing latter-day interpretation and application.

314. Historical Background of the Bible. (2:2:0) On Democrat.

Historical and cultural contexts out of which the Old and New Testaments derive.

315. Keys to Scripture Study. (2:2:0) F, W Honors also.

A guide to more effective scripture study through consideration of principles, concepts, skills, study aids, and sources common to all of the standard works.

320. History and Contribution of Joseph Smith's Translation of the Bible. (2:2:0) F, W

Historical significance of Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible, its relationship to the other standard works, and its doctrinal contributions.

327. The Pearl of Great Price. (2:2:0) F, W, Sp, Su Honors and Independent Study also.

Origin and content of the Pearl of Great Price.

392R. Special Studies in Religion: Ancient Scripture. (1:3:Arr.:0 ea.) On Democrat. Independent Study also.

Topical studies in religion based on student interest and teacher expertise.

Jerusalem Center Courses (RelA)

The following courses are offered only at the BYU Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies. Jerusalem Center courses may not be repeated.

101. Old Testament Survey. (2:1.5:3) Su

Survey of the Old Testament, integrated with extensive field study in the biblical world; leads to understanding, appreciation, and application of scriptural teachings today.

*111. New Testament Survey of the Gospels. (2:1.5:3) Su

Survey of the New Testament Gospels integrated with extensive field experience in the biblical world; leads to understanding, appreciation, and application of scriptural teachings today.

*200. New Testament Studies. (1:4:4:0) F, W

Integrated study of the New Testament and LDS history and prophecy in the biblical world; leads to an understanding, appreciation, and application of scriptural teachings today.

300. Old Testament Studies. (2:1.5:3) F, W, Su

Study of the Old Testament integrated with extensive field experiences in the biblical world; leads to an understanding, appreciation, and application of scriptural teachings today.

303. Old Testament Studies. (3:3:4) F, W

Study of the Old Testament integrated with extensive field experiences in the biblical world; leads to an understanding, appreciation, and application of scriptural teachings today.

*310. New Testament Studies of the Gospels. (2:1.5:3) Su

Study of the New Testament Gospels integrated with extensive field experience in the biblical world; leads to an understanding, appreciation, and application of scriptural teachings today.

*311. New Testament Studies of the Gospels. (3:2:4) F, W,

Study of the New Testament Gospels integrated with extensive field experiences in the biblical world; leads to an understanding, appreciation, and application of scriptural teachings today.

Not convincing, Runtu. So I wondered what other universities offered graduate degrees in religious studies, etc. Here's a list I found: http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Religion_an ... partments/

What I think is interesting is BYU isn't on that list. But then, neither are Notre Dame, Baylor, or the University of Chicago. But on the other hand, none of them are the Lord's own university. There's several prestigious universities on that list, both public and privately owned. It's very strange that BYU doesn't offer a graduate degree in anything remotely connected to the religion led by the Lord himself. How odd.

harmony wrote:Not convincing, Runtu.

Agreed. I thought the list spoke for itself.

So I wondered what other universities offered graduate degrees in religious studies, etc. Here's a list I found: http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Religion_an ... partments/

What I think is interesting is BYU isn't on that list. But then, neither are Notre Dame, Baylor, or the University of Chicago. But on the other hand, none of them are the Lord's own university. There's several prestigious universities on that list, both public and privately owned. It's very strange that BYU doesn't offer a graduate degree in anything remotely connected to the religion led by the Lord himself. How odd.

BYU is what it is. A serious place to study religion it is not.

harmony wrote:Not convincing, Runtu. So I wondered what other universities offered graduate degrees in religious studies, etc. Here's a list I found: http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Religion_an ... partments/

What I think is interesting is BYU isn't on that list. But then, neither are Notre Dame, Baylor, or the University of Chicago. But on the other hand, none of them are the Lord's own university. There's several prestigious universities on that list, both public and privately owned. It's very strange that BYU doesn't offer a graduate degree in anything remotely connected to the religion led by the Lord himself. How odd.

That list you found is incomplete, harmony. Try this one:

http://www.religiousworlds.com/study/northamerica.html

I think you'll find that all three universities you named--Notre Dame, Baylor and the University of Chicago--do indeed have religious studies and/or theology programs.

Even more remarkable is that there is not one institution of higher learning in the state of Utah that offers undergraduate or graduate degrees in religious studies, while even the University of Wyoming does. Most states have several.

Well Harmony, I think the original idea was that religion is revealed, not learned in school. But the way internet Mormons talk, you'd think otherwise.

I know that book "prophecy key to the future", my favorite as a Mormon, was a BYU master's thesis. But that was a long time ago.

You also mentioned that many good schools don't have religious programs. Certainly you won't get me calling that a sin. But there are a number of great schools that do have Bible studies programs and so on with degrees and real research programs. Different schools specialize in different things. My only point is that, there exists no such program for Book of Mormon studies anywhere in the world, nor anyway to ape a degree through a related program, anywher, not even at the school which hosts the "Maxwell Institute". There simply are no graduate degrees anywhere in the world, including BYU, that were earned through researching Book of Mormon archeology.