DiscussMormonism.com

1. The hat blocked out light to facilitate eidetic memory of a previously inspected document (such as the Bible or notes). Such things exist: See http://pages.slc.edu/~ebj/minds/student ... /Elizabeth

2. The hat was an integral part of a conjuring trick. I have invented a new magic trick that I think would actually work-- at least in carefully set up circumstances.
I sit at a table and put my head into a hat. Then I read from text located somewhere unseen. The hat is actually necessary and helps make the trick easier. I cannot perfrom it well because my glasses get in the way but it is clear that if I had 20/20 vision and the skills of James Randi, this could be made to be a convincing trick.

3. It was a trick, but the hat was not integral. Rather, it was there as a prop to help distract from what was really going on. I wonder what James Randi could come up with.

Remember that the 1800s were a time when spiritualism was rampant and there were many tricksters taking advantage of people's guillability and desire for proof of a spirit world. Joseph Smith had already been into the whole hidden treasure remote viewing scam so it would be natural that he might look for new ways to fool people.

Can you describe how this trick would work?

Preferably in detail.

Since there were also periods in which the hat wasn't used, If I recall correctly, I tend to think that the hat was not a necessary part of the process, and was utilized as a prop that would familiar to his audience.

Tarski wrote:1. The hat blocked out light to facilitate eidetic memory of a previously inspected document (such as the Bible or notes). Such things exist: See http://pages.slc.edu/~ebj/minds/student ... /Elizabeth

2. The hat was an integral part of a conjuring trick. I have invented a new magic trick that I think would actually work-- at least in carefully set up circumstances.
I sit at a table and put my head into a hat. Then I read from text located somewhere unseen. The hat is actually necessary and helps make the trick easier. I cannot perfrom it well because my glasses get in the way but it is clear that if I had 20/20 vision and the skills of James Randi, this could be made to be a convincing trick.

3. It was a trick, but the hat was not integral. Rather, it was there as a prop to help distract from what was really going on. I wonder what James Randi could come up with.

Remember that the 1800s were a time when spiritualism was rampant and there were many tricksters taking advantage of people's guillability and desire for proof of a spirit world. Joseph Smith had already been into the whole hidden treasure remote viewing scam so it would be natural that he might look for new ways to fool people.

I don't think Joseph's revelations were good enough to justify such a trick. More likely, he just made them up as he was going along.

Tarski wrote:1. The hat blocked out light to facilitate eidetic memory of a previously inspected document (such as the Bible or notes). Such things exist: See http://pages.slc.edu/~ebj/minds/student ... /Elizabeth

2. The hat was an integral part of a conjuring trick. I have invented a new magic trick that I think would actually work-- at least in carefully set up circumstances.
I sit at a table and put my head into a hat. Then I read from text located somewhere unseen. The hat is actually necessary and helps make the trick easier. I cannot perfrom it well because my glasses get in the way but it is clear that if I had 20/20 vision and the skills of James Randi, this could be made to be a convincing trick.

3. It was a trick, but the hat was not integral. Rather, it was there as a prop to help distract from what was really going on. I wonder what James Randi could come up with.

Remember that the 1800s were a time when spiritualism was rampant and there were many tricksters taking advantage of people's guillability and desire for proof of a spirit world. Joseph Smith had already been into the whole hidden treasure remote viewing scam so it would be natural that he might look for new ways to fool people.

What about the possibility that there was a magic stone in the hat that Joseph used as a medium/interface between this world and another? He already had one at hand. Why not use it?

Regards,
MG

Mercury wrote:Can you describe how this trick would work?

Preferably in detail.

I really should get someone with good eyes to perform a perfected version first, but what the hey. (just give me credit for the original idea :)
The first thing to realize is that if you put your head in a typical hat your eyes naturally hit the region near the brim. Two extremely tiny holes along that seam are essentially unnoticable and yet when your eyes are right up against them they are fine for seeing into your lap or onto your chest. One could get fancy with mirrors and a document stuck to the underside of the table ...or just hold a notebook in one's lap and just have little innocent notes on the first page but anything else on page 3,4,.. etc. use curtain or other things to make it harder for the other person to see what is going on (he did have a curtain it seems).

"Hey Emma, was Jerusalem surrounded by a wall" (pretend to jott this amazing discovery down on the innocent notebook in one's lap)

I have some other low tech ideas to make it work better but the main point is that one can see!

mentalgymnast wrote: Why not use it?

Because tales of the fantastic are for suckers, such as yourself.

I don't know enough about what Joseph Smith did with his hat.... It seems like a prop...

I do wonder if he had eidetic memory. One thing is certain -- he was creative!

Quite simple.

Sidney and Joseph wrote the manuscript with their work based on Spaulding's ripped off work as well as their own ideas and rip offs from the Bible.

To keep up the translation charade with his scribes, Emma, and others, Joe would put the scraps of the manuscript deep into his hat and read them from there. If the scribe or Emma looked over he would pull the hat close to block their view of the contents of the hat.

Emma reported times when Joe would pick right up where he had left off the night before... easy when you mark your spot on the in-the-hat manuscript.

Additionally, LDS Inc loves to relate the story that the majority of the Book of Mormon "translation" occurred in less then 90 days.. that is very telling as it is about the same amount of time it would take to dictate and have a scribe right it all down for that size of a book.

How many folks actually saw the stone in the hat method of "translation"?

If I recall correctly there were times when Joseph Smith "translated" but a curtain was drawn between he and the scribe?

Do we know which scribes observed which methods?

There are apologists who agree that Joseph Smith most likely copied some parts of the Bible directly from the Bible, but I do not recall a source from someone who observed this, which makes me think Joseph Smith could have copied anything if the scribes and observers were in on it.

Anyway, we have Emma saying Joseph Smith picked up right where he left off, apologists admitting Joseph Smith copied the Bible, a curtain drawn between Joseph Smith and a scribe, and a stone in a hat... put it all together and it just doesn't sound like Divine intervention.

;-)

Not that I can read the mind of God but wouldn't it be much simpler to have the Nephites write in English? Or Joseph Smith have a gift to actually translate? Or a rosetta stone sort of thing?

~dancer~