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According to D&C 76, all humans who die a non Mormon will never get past the terrestial kingdom, correct?

Mormon doctrine states that only those who attain the highest degree in the celestial kingdom will get to experience "Families together forever", aaaannnnd to get there, all family members must be baptized a Mormon, men receive the preisthood and marriage in the temple for men and women, otherwise they will fall short and be in a lower kingdom which does not contain the forever family promise.

So then, tell me WHY Mormons do anything past baptism for the dead, if(according to D&C 76) they will never reach the highest kingdom to exercise the promised blessings of said temple ordinances?

Initiatory work, endowments, and sealings, all a waste of time, according to D&C 76, correct?

Hi Boaz,

This is an area of interest for me, and always has been considering my parents were long inactive, while I was active.

I think there is a contradiction between D&C 76, and what Joseph later experienced (written at the end of the D&C) with regard to his vision of his dead brother Alvin...

When I have brought this up on the fair boards, (lessons at church that covered D&C 76 were never easy for me...and are some of the few occassions when either I or someone else has walked out, because I wasn't towing the party line....gotta stick up for my parents who are/were some of the best people in the world) I have been told I don't understand church doctrine.

I think because the church baptises/seals/marries/endows/annoints, that it does want to open doors (as it sees it) for the departed, so in that sense we are all heirs to the CK. I guess it's their way of leaving God to judge. They do put their money where their mouth is, so to speak.

That doctrine is a lot kinder than most evangelical and protestant views of unbelievers that I have come across.

Having said all that, none of it sits well with D&C 76. Joseph was either wrong, or it was designed by him (or God) to be a scare tactic, and/or Joseph changed his mind as things went along and he really started to personally think about the implications of what he had written in D&C 76.

I think I would go on the last one. He started to think about how all that judgement and condemnation would apply to people he loved, and he came away with a slightly different perspective...(see always interesting to note what tender familial feelings and love can do for someone's perspective on God)

Even then, he gave the proviso that Alvin hadn't had the opportunity to accept the gospel, which wouldn't have covered my parents, since they were inactive through disbelief of Joseph Smith really but had had th opportunity to hear and accept the 'gospel'.

It would also be interesting to bring in the implications of the 2nd anointing here too, with regard to Emma. She didn't stick with the Brighamites, so in effect, she left the main body of the authorised church. Yet she had received her 2nd anointing and Joseph (rather condesendlingly in my opinion) stated words to the effect that he would get her out of the lower kingdoms or wherever, if he had to. Technically she would have been an inactive apostate, so there we have another instance where Joseph is not so keen to apply his own revelations when it comes to people that he loved...or he found another doctrine that would get around D&C 76. (2nd anointing)

D&C 76, in my opinion shouldn't be in there, or it should have bold provisos, printed in, (does it now? I havn't looked for a long time) so that people know not to take it too literally...

(and of course, if Joseph was simply wrong on D&C 76, it means that he was not infallible in terms of attempting to grasp the mind and will of God, and if he was wrong on that, he could have been wrong on a lot of other things too...)

Mary

Mary wrote:It would also be interesting to bring in the implications of the 2nd anointing here too, with regard to Emma. She didn't stick with the Brighamites, so in effect, she left the main body of the authorised church. Yet she had received her 2nd anointing and Joseph (rather condesendlingly in my opinion) stated words to the effect that he would get her out of the lower kingdoms or wherever, if he had to. Technically she would have been an inactive apostate, so there we have another instance where Joseph is not so keen to apply his own revelations when it comes to people that he loved...or he found another doctrine that would get around D&C 76. (2nd anointing)

Did Emma receive her second anointing? I guess she did. I hadn't thought about that before.

I find it interesting how, over the years, Emma has become more revered among LDS Church members in general.

Even in the 80's, just 20 years ago, Emma tended to receive "mixed reviews" among Church members.

A lot of things have seemed to evolve over time as far as the accepted gospel is concerned.

I suppose that's why I am starting to question a lot of it. It seems to me that it's more important to truly live your life as a good, caring person, and leave the rest up to the Lord when the time comes.

Boaz & Lidia wrote:According to D&C 76, all humans who die a non Mormon will never get past the terrestial kingdom, correct?

Mormon doctrine states that only those who attain the highest degree in the celestial kingdom will get to experience "Families together forever", aaaannnnd to get there, all family members must be baptized a Mormon, men receive the preisthood and marriage in the temple for men and women, otherwise they will fall short and be in a lower kingdom which does not contain the forever family promise.

So then, tell me WHY Mormons do anything past baptism for the dead, if(according to D&C 76) they will never reach the highest kingdom to exercise the promised blessings of said temple ordinances?

Initiatory work, endowments, and sealings, all a waste of time, according to D&C 76, correct?

You misunderstand that it the limit you think is in place is for those who had the chance to hear did not accept but later did. Celestial glory is still there for tohse who never had the chance. I am pretty certain there is another passage later in the D&C that clarifies this. I just have no time to hunt for it.

Jason wrote:You misunderstand that it the limit you think is in place is for those who had the chance to hear did not accept but later did. Celestial glory is still there for tohse who never had the chance. I am pretty certain there is another passage later in the D&C that clarifies this. I just have no time to hunt for it.

So, Jason, does this mean that those who have heard the gospel, but chose not to join are out of luck? What about a spouse who is married to a non-member? The non-member spouse is supportive of the spouse's involvement in Church, and is a loving, faithful spouse, but never joins the church during his/her lifetime? If the surviving spouse has his/her work done, is it a waste of time?

Liz, it gets messy huh...

I have real problems with D&C 76. I don't think I am the only one...

The kindest view is that no matter what D & C suggests, God alone will do the judging in the end, whether someone has heard, accepted, rejected the LDS view of things or not...

I tend to go with the idea that if there is a God that what we do in our daily lives is more important than what we believed in terms of dogma.
In that sense any person from any religion (whether christian or not) can be a member of the church of the lamb...

I find that view to be most liberating and also most fair...

Mary

Miss Taken wrote:Liz, it gets messy huh...

I have real problems with D&C 76. I don't think I am the only one...

The kindest view is that no matter what D & C suggests, God alone will do the judging in the end, whether someone has heard, accepted, rejected the LDS view of things or not...

I tend to go with the idea that if there is a God that what we do in our daily lives is more important than what we believed in terms of dogma.
In that sense any person from any religion (whether christian or not) can be a member of the church of the lamb...

I find that view to be most liberating and also most fair...

Mary

This has been my approach as well. Of course, if this really is the case, then Boaz's OP takes on a whole new direction. Sealings--ALL sealings, in essence, WOULD be a waste of time. ;)

As a missionary I often thought that I was doing a lot to damn people by preaching the gospel since most of them didn't listen to the message or rejected it. On the other hand I have long thought that we don't know what constitutes a real chance to receive the gospel, even while I was a missionary.

Yeah...I just don't see a God as someone expecting a baptism/sealing/annointing/ chitty from a particular 'valid' church before entrance is allowed. I can't imagine that he would work that way, but I guess I have to respect that there are other people/churches who think differently...

Oh well....!! Another reason I couldn't return to activity...

Mary

According to D&C 76, all humans who die a non Mormon will never get past the terrestial kingdom, correct?

Incorrect. If you think I am in error, please reference the specific verse.