I wore a burka today.

[_harmony]

Yes, except there doesn't appear to be any colossal struggle.

I doubt you were anywhere around when this "struggle" as you call it took place, Nehor. Likely still a twinkle in your daddy's eye.

Good for your momma.

[_Sister Mary Lisa]

Why? Because their women (your mother, aunts, and female friends) refuse to wear the veil at home, even though they're required to wear it in the temple? Sounds to me like it's your mother/aunts/female friends who have been doing it right, rather than your father/uncles/male friends who have been doing it wrong.

Yes, except there doesn't appear to be any colossal struggle. Would it not be fair to suggest that both parties are doing it right? Oh, I should add that these people are active LDS and many of them hold leadership positions. Why have they not been rebuked for their scandalous behavior in letting their wives run rampant? Why, just last week my mother took out the boat WITHOUT HER HUSBAND AND WITHOUT PERMISSION and took some of the women in the ward water-skiing. Why, all she did was call him and tell him she was going. His statement of, "Have fun." doubtless held back concealed rage at her brazen audacity. I can only assume that he beat her when she got back. Otherwise he should be thrown out of his calling and mocked mercilessly.

You want to hear something even crazier? Last girl I was dating insisted that she wanted to plan out of our dates WITHOUT APPROVAL. She didn't even ask. She just told me. It goes without saying that out of concern for her soul I put her in a straitjacket and dumped her on the Bishop's lawn after the date with a large note attached to her saying, "Exorcise the demons from me lest I act so wantonly before my betters again."

Listen, there is a very real message being perpetuated throughout the church that men have divine authority and power and women are subordinate to them, both at church and at home. It is spelled out clearly in "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." Why do you suppose it is that we consistently get talks by leaders in priesthood sessions of conference and in stake priesthood meetings and in church publications and in sacrament meeting that admonish the men to wield their divine priesthood power over their women with righteousness and to avoid unrighteous dominion? You will never see talks asking the women to please use the power they wield over their men in righteousness.

You seem to be suggesting that women do share equal power with men in the church. Are we both talking about the Mormon church?? If you don't think there is actually a struggle happening for women, then you are not listening to the talks about unrighteous dominion very well, obviously. The fact they are HANDED "dominion" just because they're men is wrong on many levels. I don't expect you to understand any of this by the flippant responses you keep writing, however.

[_Sister Mary Lisa]

Sister Lisa,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I think I was feelig a little exasperated with Hally, or more directly, with her mindset. I think you helped clarify what it was, exactly, that she was feeling and trying to communicate. I have two daughters, and I'm doing the single dad thing. This isn't an attempt at a pat on the back, because I don't really care about that, but my point is that raising daughters to be on equal ground in their minds with men is a challenge when adult women all around them seem to be constantly settling and constantly subordinating themselves to men and half their own gender. They have a Mormon mother in Utah doing the Mormon mother thing, which is already a s****y example, in my opinion, for what I want to accomplish. They have the Mormon culture thing that you talk about (Richard Packham just posted a touching obit to his sister who took her life, a result of years of feeling worthless within Mormondom). They have the Southern thing. The gender thing. Then they have the global Patriarchy thing. Etc...

And this is coming from a dude who, by far, does not consider himself, at all, to be a "Social Progressive" (Go McCain/Palin!). I value the concept of equality, liberty, freedom, and the architecture that our system created that allows all people, if they so choose, to flourish and prosper. So with that... Perhaps you can sense my disappoint at the sentiments expressed by Hally (now understood better).

V/R
AS8

A woman can be on equal ground with men in her own mind, as you say, yet would you still say she really IS on equal ground in reality?

[_The Nehor]

Listen, there is a very real message being perpetuated throughout the church that men have divine authority and power and women are subordinate to them, both at church and at home. It is spelled out clearly in "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." Why do you suppose it is that we consistently get talks by leaders in priesthood sessions of conference and in stake priesthood meetings and in church publications and in sacrament meeting that admonish the men to wield their divine priesthood power over their women with righteousness and to avoid unrighteous dominion? You will never see talks asking the women to please use the power they wield over their men in righteousness.

You seem to be suggesting that women do share equal power with men in the church. Are we both talking about the Mormon church?? If you don't think there is actually a struggle happening for women, then you are not listening to the talks about unrighteous dominion very well, obviously. The fact they are HANDED "dominion" just because they're men is wrong on many levels. I don't expect you to understand any of this by the flippant responses you keep writing, however.

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners."

Where does subordination fit into the 'equal partners' description?

I actually don't hear a lot of talks to men about them wielding authority in righteousness. I do hear a lot about loving your wives and children and doing and sacrificing all that is necessary for them. I have heard talks admonishing women to use their influence (a kind of power) they have over their husbands and children in righteousness.

This struggle with women.....what are you talking about? Men struggling with women over power? I think the 'equal partners' clause should clarify this. If you're talking about women choosing not to marry and/or choosing to unnecessarily delay/avoid having children then men ARE TOLD THE EXACT SAME THING.

I think you're hung up on dominion.....what does this dominion mean? The scriptures make it clear that it's a command to demonstrate charity and be longsuffering and sacrifice all for the good of those to whom you've been given dominion over. In other words it is NOT the right to give commands, lord superiority over anyone, or use your power (and everyone has power) in any degree of unrighteousness. What exactly are you suggesting women are being subordinated to?

[Guest]

Listen, there is a very real message being perpetuated throughout the church that men have divine authority and power and women are subordinate to them, both at church and at home. It is spelled out clearly in "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." Why do you suppose it is that we consistently get talks by leaders in priesthood sessions of conference and in stake priesthood meetings and in church publications and in sacrament meeting that admonish the men to wield their divine priesthood power over their women with righteousness and to avoid unrighteous dominion? You will never see talks asking the women to please use the power they wield over their men in righteousness.

You seem to be suggesting that women do share equal power with men in the church. Are we both talking about the Mormon church?? If you don't think there is actually a struggle happening for women, then you are not listening to the talks about unrighteous dominion very well, obviously. The fact they are HANDED "dominion" just because they're men is wrong on many levels. I don't expect you to understand any of this by the flippant responses you keep writing, however.

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners."

Where does subordination fit into the 'equal partners' description?

I actually don't hear a lot of talks to men about them wielding authority in righteousness. I do hear a lot about loving your wives and children and doing and sacrificing all that is necessary for them. I have heard talks admonishing women to use their influence (a kind of power) they have over their husbands and children in righteousness.

This struggle with women.....what are you talking about? Men struggling with women over power? I think the 'equal partners' clause should clarify this. If you're talking about women choosing not to marry and/or choosing to unnecessarily delay/avoid having children then men ARE TOLD THE EXACT SAME THING.

I think you're hung up on dominion.....what does this dominion mean? The scriptures make it clear that it's a command to demonstrate charity and be longsuffering and sacrifice all for the good of those to whom you've been given dominion over. In other words it is NOT the right to give commands, lord superiority over anyone, or use your power (and everyone has power) in any degree of unrighteousness. What exactly are you suggesting women are being subordinated to?

Nehor sounds just like all the Muslims I talk to, who say men and women in Islam are complete equals. Yes, the women in burkas walking 20 feet behind the men carrying the casket of the teenage girls murdered by their father for defying him by wearing western clothing styles (in Lewisville, Texas) are every bit as equal to any Muslim man. Just like the women veiling their faces in the temple promising to hearken to their husbands are every bit as equal to men in the Mormon church because, well, "preside" doesn't really mean preside any more than "horse" means horse.

[_harmony]

I made your sig! Wow!

When you see the first female bishop, we'll have something to talk about "equal partners", Nehor. When men have to veil their faces in the temple, we'll have something to talk about "equal partners." When men covenant with their wives as their wives covenant with God, we'll have something to talk about "equal partners".

Until then, you have no standing in understanding what it's like to be female in the LDS church.

[_The Nehor]

Nehor sounds just like all the Muslims I talk to, who say men and women in Islam are complete equals. Yes, the women in burkas walking 20 feet behind the men carrying the casket of the teenage girls murdered by their father for defying him by wearing western clothing styles (in Lewisville, Texas) are every bit as equal to any Muslim man. Just like the women veiling their faces in the temple promising to hearken to their husbands are every bit as equal to men in the Mormon church because, well, "preside" doesn't really mean preside any more than "horse" means horse.

Hey, I grew up in Lewisville. Missed that news.

Then where is the unfairness in the LDS faith? Where is the burka? The forcing people to walk behind? What is holding women back?

[_Sister Mary Lisa]

Listen, there is a very real message being perpetuated throughout the church that men have divine authority and power and women are subordinate to them, both at church and at home. It is spelled out clearly in "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." Why do you suppose it is that we consistently get talks by leaders in priesthood sessions of conference and in stake priesthood meetings and in church publications and in sacrament meeting that admonish the men to wield their divine priesthood power over their women with righteousness and to avoid unrighteous dominion? You will never see talks asking the women to please use the power they wield over their men in righteousness.

You seem to be suggesting that women do share equal power with men in the church. Are we both talking about the Mormon church?? If you don't think there is actually a struggle happening for women, then you are not listening to the talks about unrighteous dominion very well, obviously. The fact they are HANDED "dominion" just because they're men is wrong on many levels. I don't expect you to understand any of this by the flippant responses you keep writing, however.

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners."

Where does subordination fit into the 'equal partners' description?

I actually don't hear a lot of talks to men about them wielding authority in righteousness. I do hear a lot about loving your wives and children and doing and sacrificing all that is necessary for them. I have heard talks admonishing women to use their influence (a kind of power) they have over their husbands and children in righteousness.

This struggle with women.....what are you talking about? Men struggling with women over power? I think the 'equal partners' clause should clarify this. If you're talking about women choosing not to marry and/or choosing to unnecessarily delay/avoid having children then men ARE TOLD THE EXACT SAME THING.

I think you're hung up on dominion.....what does this dominion mean? The scriptures make it clear that it's a command to demonstrate charity and be longsuffering and sacrifice all for the good of those to whom you've been given dominion over. In other words it is NOT the right to give commands, lord superiority over anyone, or use your power (and everyone has power) in any degree of unrighteousness. What exactly are you suggesting women are being subordinated to?

From my American Heritage dictionary:
Preside v. "To possess or exercise authority or control."

It is impossible to derive equality from the sentence you quoted in the Proclamation. Not when one presides over others.

Many women struggle with feeling like second class citizens in the church, and many women struggle with being treated like crap because their men feel they have every right to control all things because God has given them divine power. If you never experienced that, you're lucky. But I've lived it and seen it enough within the church to know that it's not a small problem. I am not suggesting that this is true for ALL couples in the church. But it is a problem, and not a small one. LDS.org has many articles about unrighteous dominion should you care to do a search in the Ensign articles.

I knew that I wasn't equal to men in the church's eyes when I was not allowed to go to the temple to take out my endowments because I was first required to get permission in writing from my never-Mormon husband, which he didn't grant, so therefore I was not given a recommend. Period. So this equality you speak of is foreign to me, and not based on reality.

You are deluding yourself if you think men and women are equal in the church.

[_The Nehor]

I made your sig! Wow!

When you see the first female bishop, we'll have something to talk about "equal partners", Nehor. When men have to veil their faces in the temple, we'll have something to talk about "equal partners." When men covenant with their wives as their wives covenant with God, we'll have something to talk about "equal partners".

Until then, you have no standing in understanding what it's like to be female in the LDS church.

If that's true then you have no understanding of what it's like to be male in the LDS church. The Priesthood demands, the unceasing demands for excellence and purity for using the Priesthood, the struggle to fulfill callings that involve speaking for God, and the spiritual heights that must be sought in order to give something as simple as a Priesthood blessing.

When women are expected to do these things then I'll believe you might have an understanding of what it's like to be male in the LDS church.

[_The Nehor]

It is impossible to derive equality from the sentence you quoted in the Proclamation. Not when one presides over others.

Many women struggle with feeling like second class citizens in the church, and many women struggle with being treated like crap because their men feel they have every right to control all things because God has given them divine power. If you never experienced that, you're lucky. But I've lived it and seen it enough within the church to know that it's not a small problem. I am not suggesting that this is true for ALL couples in the church. But it is a problem, and not a small one. LDS.org has many articles about unrighteous dominion should you care to do a search in the Ensign articles.

I knew that I wasn't equal to men in the church's eyes when I was not allowed to go to the temple to take out my endowments because I was first required to get permission in writing from my never-Mormon husband, which he didn't grant, so therefore I was not given a recommend. Period. So this equality you speak of is foreign to me, and not based on reality.

You are deluding yourself if you think men and women are equal in the church.

When I use the word preside I ascribe the scriptural meaning attached to that power and that is what I described.

Those men are going to hell and haven't read the scriptures. Those women also need to read the scriptures. There is a problem is some marriages in the Church where men exercise unrighteous dominion. Just like there are some where women do the same thing. Everything in the Church is calculated to root that kind of thing out. Blaming it on the Church is ridiculous. Men have been abusing women since the beginning of time. Women have been doing likewise to men. Of course it happens some within the Church. The Church defines this activity though. They call it sin.

Then I am deluded. Or you are. One of the two.