Orson and Sarah Pratt

[_zeezrom]

I can't tell you how gratified I am when people like you leave the church.

William,

I can't tell you how I've longed to have a Priesthood interview with you. I have all the worthiness questions ready. I would love hear you knock on the door so I can invite you in with a warm welcome and tell you to sit in the chair by my desk with a view of the Harry Anderson painting on my wall. Please tell me we can meet in person! I would love to discuss everything with you, including the reasons why Sarah Pratt was a great person.

Love,

Zee.

PS - I still haven't left.

[_badseed]

And you can't rehabilitate poor evidence by pointing to a totally unrelated example of poor evidence somewhere else.

Right. I'm not trying to rehabilitate anything or saying that the claims about Sarah Pratt are necessarily accurate, only that if an antimormon bias alone makes Sarah unreliable then I would say that there are a number of unreliable source on the pro side as well. Just an observation.

If Sarah did reject a proposal from Joseph and if her reputation was blackened because of it, appears to have not been the only case of something like this happening. The accounts given by Nancy Rigdon and Martha Brotherton are actually quite similar. What do you make of these accounts?

[_Yahoo Bot]

And you can't rehabilitate poor evidence by pointing to a totally unrelated example of poor evidence somewhere else.

Right. I'm not trying to rehabilitate anything or saying that the claims about Sarah Pratt are necessarily accurate, only that if an antimormon bias alone makes Sarah unreliable then I would say that there are a number of unreliable source on the pro side as well. Just an observation.

If Sarah did reject a proposal from Joseph and if her reputation was blackened because of it, appears to have not been the only case of something like this happening. The accounts given by Nancy Rigdon and Martha Brotherton are actually quite similar. What do you make of these accounts?

This is just plain diversion even though you try to claim you're not. When you read the historians' assessment of this event, they don't try and divert to other events separated by years. The sources stand on their own, really. And, in Sarah's case as I have pointed out, her sources are very weak -- in particular, to summarize: She never independently and on her own made her claims. They are retold by Wyl. Forty years later. In a book where he claims she claims Joseph Smith was authorizing abortions for his mistresses. Sarah has no other statement she's made in her behalf; for all we know, Wyl made it up. Contrast that with contemporaneous Bakenstos affidavits. Contemporaneous statement by Joseph Smith.

Sarah's own husband first wavered, then believed Joseph Smith. And it isn't like Orson did so blithely. Joseph Smith advised him to divorce Sarah. He refused.

And then there's the direct conflict between Sarah and JSIII.

And then there's John C. Bennett's direct support of Joseph Smith Jr. in the matter at a time when JCB was opposing Joseph Smith -- pretty compelling, to me.

So, you add it up. Not even Sarah's own voice on the subject.

But, now I'm repeating myself. Y'all just want to read what you want to read. Evidence be damned. Carry on.

[_badseed]

This is just plain diversion even though you try to claim you're not.

Ummmm....OK. As I said I don't necessarily dispute that there were some questions around the supposed Sarah Pratt claims. But please don't take my word for it though...go ahead and tell what I am really saying...sheesh.

So speaking of diversions, did you see my question to you? What do you make of the claims made by Martha Brotherton and Nancy Rigdon? I couldn't tell from your remarks but it seemed as if you think they have no bearing on the Pratt claims....because they were separate events. Is that correct?

If so I disagree. I think it illustrates a pattern of behavior. We have numerous accounts of Joseph proposing to other women in Nauvoo. Some were from contemporary journals, some from interviews by Jensen years later. They are separate events separated by years but are not unrelated. Pieced together they give a picture of Joseph's plural marriage activities.

The Brotherton and Rigdon cases show Joseph (and Brigham) in Nauvoo proposing to women and attacking their character once rejected or at least allowing others to do so. Personally I find that compelling in regards to Sarah Pratt but by no means conclusive.

And as far as JSIII is concerned— Like he had much motivation to say anything that painted his father as a polygamist. Remember, he and Emma didn't think Joseph was a polygamist or they lied about it without flinching. I personally wouldn't call them a great source on polygamy. It took CoC years to admit that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage based on what Emma and JSIII started.

I do have serious doubt about the abortion claims that were attributed to Joseph Smith and JCB. They are unsubstantiated in my opinion.

"Y'all just want to read what you want to read. Evidence be damned."
Waaaaaaaaa. Poor baby. Is nobody listening to you? So we see the evidence differently. Certainly you didn't come here expecting everyone to hear your words and immediately head back to Church. If that we're that case you wouldn't find us here to begin with. That site is called MAD.

[_Yahoo Bot]

"Y'all just want to read what you want to read. Evidence be damned."
Waaaaaaaaa. Poor baby. Is nobody listening to you? So we see the evidence differently. Certainly you didn't come here expecting everyone to hear your words and immediately head back to Church. If that we're that case you wouldn't find us here to begin with. That site is called MAD.

Oh really? I've never heard of the place! Do you think I'll find folks over there I can mock and deride for favoring weak hearsay over good solid evidence?

[_zeezrom]

Sarah's own husband first wavered, then believed Joseph Smith. And it isn't like Orson did so blithely. Joseph Smith advised him to divorce Sarah. He refused.

Maybe he refused because he had some sense of integrity left in him...

[_zzyzx]

"a yellow journalist of the worst stripe."

What, he worked for the Deseret News?

[_harmony]

I live with a 57 year old man.

I have only pity for the 16 year old in this sordid story.

As for Sarah... you go, girl!

[_Yahoo Bot]

I think the Church had the ultimate response to Sarah by living well, prospering in spite of her, and seeing her grandchildren return to the Church and become apostles and prophets. Yes indeed.

[_Runtu]

Oh really? I've never heard of the place! Do you think I'll find folks over there I can mock and deride for favoring weak hearsay over good solid evidence?

in my opinion, the Sarah Pratt testimony isn't particularly illuminating or compelling. We already know pretty much how and with whom Joseph Smith engaged in plural marriage, so you're quite right that a second-hand account from a hostile witness many years later isn't all that helpful.