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One thing I find fascinating about the LDS church is that it very much seems to be engineered, where they are constantly redefining doctrine but yet still claiming to never back away from their history. Still, the recent statements from Hinckley are hard to imagine:

Question: "Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?"

Hinckley: "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it."

Now, I tend to try to put the most positive spin concerning whether a person is lying or just mistaken, but with Hinckley, I don't know how this could be anything but a flat out lie. He KNEW that it was taught, because he even taught it himself. So what was his angle in making this statement? Why are they backing away from this very central part of Mormon theology, or at least it seemed to be in the past?

President Hinkley didn't lie, and I should know having actively attended the Church in over 20 different wards and areas for some 32 years.

The only thing that is "emphasized" in the Church is the part of the couplet that "we can become like our Father". The church hasn't at all been teaching and emphasizing that the Father was once a man like us. Has the quote been a quote that has been taught and repeated, yes, and is it even believed by most, yes, but the last part of that quote is not official doctrine.

That was why President Hinckley answered the way he did.

Also, CFR that President Hinckley ever taught that "God was once a man like us".
You can find him teaching the first part of the couplet, but as far as I know certainly not the last. Why? Cause it's not official doctrine. LDS leaders haven't touched the last part of the couplet for years. For the last 30 years the Church has been trying hard to only teach what is actual "Doctrine" of the Church. Not every word or idea ever taught or spoken is doctrine, and it never has been.

And in case you don't know what makes doctrine of the Church. It's FOUR THINGS.

Scripture, Prophets, Holy Ghost, & Common Consent.
ALL must agree and be cohesive to be doctrine.

You're right. He lied. No amount of apologist BS can change that. You're on the right track.

Obiwan, that is not how the church defines doctrine. And yes, the former mortality of God is doctrine. Weird to hear a church member deny that.

Here we go. 1971 Ensign, currently on the LDS.org website, which by definition is doctrine because it bears the church's copyright:

God an Exalted Man
I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

Not doctrine? Sad that an apostate like me knows the doctrine better than you and President Hinckley do. ;-)

Obiwan wrote:President Hinkley didn't lie, and I should know having actively attended the Church in over 20 different wards and areas for some 32 years.

The only thing that is "emphasized" in the Church is the part of the couplet that "we can become like our Father". The church hasn't at all been teaching and emphasizing that the Father was once a man like us. Has the quote been a quote that has been taught and repeated, yes, and is it even believed by most, yes, but the last part of that quote is not official doctrine.

That was why President Hinckley answered the way he did.

Also, CFR that President Hinckley ever taught that "God was once a man like us".
You can find him teaching the first part of the couplet, but as far as I know certainly not the last. Why? Cause it's not official doctrine. LDS leaders haven't touched the last part of the couplet for years. For the last 30 years the Church has been trying hard to only teach what is actual "Doctrine" of the Church. Not every word or idea ever taught or spoken is doctrine, and it never has been.

And in case you don't know what makes doctrine of the Church. It's FOUR THINGS.

Scripture, Prophets, Holy Ghost, & Common Consent.
ALL must agree and be cohesive to be doctrine.

This seems like hair-splitting to me. Here is what Hinckley said:

"On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62); and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become!" - Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, October 1994

So he quoted the second part, not the first part, but I am going to assume that's what you meant. He referenced the King Follett sermon, where JSJr clearly did teach both parts, and President Snow, who formulated the entire saying. It was taught by Joseph Smith onward and the fact that Hinckley referenced Snow certainly implies that he considered it authoritative, even if he only quoted the second part.

But I think that recently, for whatever reason, they have found the first part difficult to defend to mainstream Christians and probably hampered conversions, so they decided to deemphasize it. But it was taught and it was considered doctrine before. I accept your claim that they may not teach it now. But that's what I mean by the church being engineered.

Obiwan wrote:
Scripture, Prophets, Holy Ghost, & Common Consent.
ALL must agree and be cohesive to be doctrine.

So what is taught in church manuals with the church stamp on it is not official doctrine? wow

I was taught my whole life that we could one day become a god if we were faithful enough. Are you sure you are Mormon? I am pretty sure my Relief Society Pres Mom would disagree with you and my former bishop Dad would say you are full of crap. Yeah that's right he swears sometimes. I am actually kind of sick of you apologists saying it is not official doctrine because become a god is official. Man this really pisses me off sometimes.

Obiwan wrote:President Hinkley didn't lie, and I should know having actively attended the Church in over 20 different wards and areas for some 32 years.

President Hinckley did lie, and I should know from having actively attended numerous wards in several states over the course of some 37 years.

The only thing that is "emphasized" in the Church is the part of the couplet that "we can become like our Father". The church hasn't at all been teaching and emphasizing that the Father was once a man like us. Has the quote been a quote that has been taught and repeated, yes, and is it even believed by most, yes, but the last part of that quote is not official doctrine.

That was why President Hinckley answered the way he did.

Gospel Principles, Chapter 47: Exaltation

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

Lesson 32: “To Seal the Testimony”, Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, 183

What truths about the Godhead were restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? (See D&C 130:22–23; Joseph Smith—History 1:17; and the following quotation.)

In a sermon given at the funeral of Elder King Follett on 7 April 1844, the Prophet Joseph Smith taught:

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345).

Also, CFR that President Hinckley ever taught that "God was once a man like us".
You can find him teaching the first part of the couplet, but as far as I know certainly not the last. Why? Cause it's not official doctrine. LDS leaders haven't touched the last part of the couplet for years. For the last 30 years the Church has been trying hard to only teach what is actual "Doctrine" of the Church. Not every word or idea ever taught or spoken is doctrine, and it never has been.

Gordon B. Hinckley
September 1994 Ensign

In March of the year he died—1844—the Prophet had amplified this doctrine in a monumental address which he delivered in the grove which was just below the temple site. The text of that address has become an important doctrinal document in the theology of the Church. It is known as the King Follett Sermon.

And in case you don't know what makes doctrine of the Church. It's FOUR THINGS.

Scripture, Prophets, Holy Ghost, & Common Consent.
ALL must agree and be cohesive to be doctrine.

I can't wait to see the official doctrine that defines this as official doctrine. Let 'er rip, Obiwan.

Obiwan wrote:The church hasn't at all been teaching and emphasizing that the Father was once a man like us.

"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church." - Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young - Chapter 4: Knowing and Honoring the Godhead - LDS.org

"President Brigham Young taught the Latter-day Saints ... that God the Father was once a man on another planet who 'passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality.'" - Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young - Chapter 4: Knowing and Honoring the Godhead - LDS.org

"Joseph Smith taught: 'It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did." - Gospel Principles: Chapter 47: Exaltation - LDS.org

The seminary manual, Doctrine and Covenants Student Study Guide, teaches the Snow couplet along with Snow's belief that it was a "revelation" from "the Spirit of the Lord" and "a sacred communication."

The Aaronic Priesthood Manual 2 quotes the Snow couplet, approvingly, by all appearances -- and in Lesson 1, no less!

The Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual quotes the relevant portion of the King Follet Discourse after describing it as one of the "truths about the Godhead [that was] restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."

The relevant portion(s) of the King Follet Discourse and/or the Lorenzo Snow couplet appear, without any indication that such teachings are false, questionable, speculative, opinion, or anything other than the gospel truth, in the following Church-published publications published by the Church, all available at LDS.org:

The Fulness of the Gospel: The Nature of the Godhead, Ensign, January 2006

The Quest for Spiritual Knowledge, New Era, January 2007

The King Follet Sermon, Ensign, April 1971

Q&A: Questions and Answers, New Era, April 1971

Our Great Potential, Ensign, May 1977

Gospel Art Picture Kit: Lorenzo Snow

Decision, Ensign, May 1978

Eliza R. Snow Poetry Contest Winners, Ensign, July 1989

Funstuf - President Lorenzo Snow Crossword, Friend, March 2002

Mormonad, New Era, June 1982

Mirthright, Ensign, March 1983

When Our Children Go Astray, Ensign, February 1997

Strengthening the Family: Created in the Image of God, Male and Female, Ensign, January 2005

And then there's this thing:

I Have a Question: Is President Lorenzo Snow’s oft-repeated statement—“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be”—accepted as official doctrine by the Church?, Ensign, February 1982 (answer: yes)

ETA: I was working on mine the same time Darth J was writing his, so please pardon the redundancy.

lol


Fake ETA:I can think of three posts right now that would have never seen the light of day over at MD&D, where Pahoran reigns with a righteous iron fist.

An imperfect and small God would be pretty cool.