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Even in areas of the world where animals lived in abundance, we sometimes have problems finding archaeological remains. The textual evidence for lions in Israel, for example, suggests that lions were present in Israel from ancient times until at least the sixteenth century AD, yet no lion remains from ancient Israel have ever been found.

John Tvedtnes, "The Nature of Prophets and Prophecy" (unpublished, 1994), 29-30 (copy in author's possession); Benjamin Urrutia, "Lack of Animal Remains at Bible and Book-of-Mormon Sites," Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historic Archaeology, 150 (August 1982), 3-4.

The fauna of the country [Palestine] is almost unchanged from the earliest historic times. The lion and the wild ox have become extinct; the former is noticed by an Egyptian traveller in Lebanon in the 14th cent. B.C., and is even said to have survived to the 12th cent. A.D.; its bones are found in caves and in the Jordan gravels. (Dictionary of the Bible, ed. James Hastings, 1900).

The largest faunal collections and most intensive archaeo-zoological research for [the Chalcolithic] period have been carried out in the northern Negev. This biological data provides us with a detailed picture of human/animal relations during this formative period. ... If Shiqmim is taken as a representative sample for the valley, sheep ... and goat ... make up over 90 percent of the faunal assemblage with the remaining 10 percent consisting of cattle, ... dog, equid and ca. 3.8 percent of wild animals (gazelle, hartebeest, hippopotamus, lion, small cat, fox, hare, ostrich, bird and fish). (The Archeology of Society in the Holy Land, ed. Thomas Levy, New York, Continuum, 1998, pp. 231-32)

The biblical narrative mentions lions, yet it was not until very recently that the only other evidence for lions in Palestine was pictographic or literary. Before the announcement in a 1988 publication [L. Martin. "The Faunal Remains from Tell es Saidiyeh," Levant 20 (1988): 83—84] of two bone samples, there was no archaeological evidence to confirm the existence of lions in that region. (Robert R. Bennett, "Horses in the Book of Mormon," Maxwell Institute, 2000).

Someone needs to alert Mike Ash and Wiki Wonka.

Runtu wrote:So I'm reading Mike Ash's 2007 piece on the FAIR web site about horses in the Book of Mormon. He makes the claim that no horse bones have been found among Hun archaeological remains, though as beastie and Chris Smith have shown, this claim is erroneous.

He also makes this statement, which made me curious:

Even in areas of the world where animals lived in abundance, we sometimes have problems finding archaeological remains. The textual evidence for lions in Israel, for example, suggests that lions were present in Israel from ancient times until at least the sixteenth century AD, yet no lion remains from ancient Israel have ever been found.

His citation for this is:

John Tvedtnes, "The Nature of Prophets and Prophecy" (unpublished, 1994), 29-30 (copy in author's possession); Benjamin Urrutia, "Lack of Animal Remains at Bible and Book-of-Mormon Sites," Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historic Archaeology, 150 (August 1982), 3-4.

So, here we have two LDS sources suggesting that "no lions remains from ancient Israel have ever been found." That should be pretty easy to confirm, right?

Apparently not.

The fauna of the country [Palestine] is almost unchanged from the earliest historic times. The lion and the wild ox have become extinct; the former is noticed by an Egyptian traveller in Lebanon in the 14th cent. B.C., and is even said to have survived to the 12th cent. A.D.; its bones are found in caves and in the Jordan gravels. (Dictionary of the Bible, ed. James Hastings, 1900).

More recent archaeological excavation confirms this:

The largest faunal collections and most intensive archaeo-zoological research for [the Chalcolithic] period have been carried out in the northern Negev. This biological data provides us with a detailed picture of human/animal relations during this formative period. ... If Shiqmim is taken as a representative sample for the valley, sheep ... and goat ... make up over 90 percent of the faunal assemblage with the remaining 10 percent consisting of cattle, ... dog, equid and ca. 3.8 percent of wild animals (gazelle, hartebeest, hippopotamus, lion, small cat, fox, hare, ostrich, bird and fish). (The Archeology of Society in the Holy Land, ed. Thomas Levy, New York, Continuum, 1998, pp. 231-32)

Heck, even another Maxwell Institute article from 2000 contradicts Ash:

The biblical narrative mentions lions, yet it was not until very recently that the only other evidence for lions in Palestine was pictographic or literary. Before the announcement in a 1988 publication [L. Martin. "The Faunal Remains from Tell es Saidiyeh," Levant 20 (1988): 83—84] of two bone samples, there was no archaeological evidence to confirm the existence of lions in that region. (Robert R. Bennett, "Horses in the Book of Mormon," Maxwell Institute, 2000).

Someone needs to alert Mike Ash and Wiki Wonka.

stemelbow wrote:You're as good a candidate as any huh?

Runtu wrote:I don't know how to reach Wiki Wonka. I suppose I could email Ash. It would be interesting to see how he responds.

stemelbow wrote:

Runtu wrote:I don't know how to reach Wiki Wonka. I suppose I could email Ash. It would be interesting to see how he responds.

tell me how it goes.

Infymus wrote:The fact that either Ash or FARMS is talking about evidence or lack of evidence concerning horses in the Book of Mormon would have been enough to plant a seed in my mind back in 1992.

The more Mormons are driven to FAIR/FARMS the faster they will be out of the church.

I'm glad they both exist to bring these issues to the light of day.

Runtu wrote:I just used the FAIR page to contact Mike. I'll let you know what he says.

For the record, I've always liked Mike Ash, though I almost never agree with his apologetic arguments.