Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

[_Obiwan]

Talk to a "shareholder" not to me.....

And as far as criticism of Church leaders, I do it when it's accurate and appropriate.
Your criticism is "fantasy" not facts. I don't do fantasy. I judge according to a persons fruits, and institutions fruits, etc. Me, I see the money all around me.... I've known people who deal with the money, I've known all kinds of levels of Church leadership, hearing their words and testimony, etc. etc.

You on the other hand sit in your little judgmental box and think you know it all, and then wonder WHY "YOU don't see anything".

Also, "Tithing" isn't all how the Church has done things. I've studied the history, you haven't.
The Church has had different accounts and processes from the very beginning.
For example, the failed "Bank" was not started on "Tithing", and yet it was associated with the Church.

[_Themis]

I do think the church should be open with their finances. As such there are a lot of assertions about how much or how little they get paid which we just don't really know. If the church says it has an unpaid ministry then yes it is dishonest. Indivudual members making this statment even if they are on some site answering questions are just not very well educated on the subject or they may be lying. The problem is not that the GA's get paid. I think they should. The problem is not being honest about it and not opening the books to help aviod misuse of tithing money.

Is the church dishonest? Yes, they have been on a number of different issues, but I am not sure they are really any different then many other religions.

[_jon]

I do think the church should be open with their finances. As such there are a lot of assertions about how much or how little they get paid which we just don't really know. If the church says it has an unpaid ministry then yes it is dishonest. Indivudual members making this statment even if they are on some site answering questions are just not very well educated on the subject or they may be lying. The problem is not that the GA's get paid. I think they should. The problem is not being honest about it and not opening the books to help aviod misuse of tithing money.

Is the church dishonest? Yes, they have been on a number of different issues, but I am not sure they are really any different then many other religions.

Obiwan has stated that he is experienced in Corporations etc and that the Church books are open. I have asked him (twice now) to point me in the direction of the financial information of the City Creek Mall and so far he has failed to do so.
Come on Obiwan, use the force...

[_harmony]

Obiwan has stated that he is experienced in Corporations etc and that the Church books are open. I have asked him (twice now) to point me in the direction of the financial information of the City Creek Mall and so far he has failed to do so.
Come on Obiwan, use the force...

Well, that's an error. The church books are not open.

I'd like to see the City Creek Mall financials, too, jon. What do you think the odds are that they are publically available?

[_jon]

Obiwan has stated that he is experienced in Corporations etc and that the Church books are open. I have asked him (twice now) to point me in the direction of the financial information of the City Creek Mall and so far he has failed to do so.
Come on Obiwan, use the force...

Well, that's an error. The church books are not open.

I'd like to see the City Creek Mall financials, too, jon. What do you think the odds are that they are publically available?

Well harmony, I think we'll see a black lesbian Apostle before we see the numbers...

[_Joseph]

2. I've already told you that "Tithing" is not used for humanitarian aid jerk. So, stop repeating something I've already corrected you on.
************************************

And just WHO are you to tell anyone anything at all?

Are you tubbytommie the profit?

ParanoidBoyd the annoyer?

Dallin who sucks turtle eggs?

Nope, just another moronicpriesthood know it all who doesn't really know a damn thing. Go back and read the sunday school manual.

[_bcuzbcuz]

" And the Church has strict checks and balances, is ran (sic) by moral people, and is audited. Any problems, and it's reported. Further, anyone who has served in Church leadership also knows where the money goes. The Church is full of checks and balances,"

As a non-American who studied in the US, I can see the phrase "checks and balances" as the lie it truly is. Americans are spoon fed the idea that their government is full of "checks and balances" when, in fact, it has none at all. In the US the only truth is that "money talks, the rest walks".

Look beyond simple homilys or misleading concepts and try to see what exists below the surface. Checks and balances do not exist. It is simply the left hand saying the right hand is dealing properly.

[_harmony]

" Look beyond simple homilys or misleading concepts and try to see what exists below the surface. Checks and balances do not exist. It is simply the left hand saying the right hand is dealing properly.

When dealing with the church, there is no check and no balance. There is unlimited access to the tithing funds, no oversight, no annual report. And thus we end up with City Creek.

At no point should God's own church be in the business of making money.

[_malkie]

...
People have been donating their fortunes, businesses, etc. to the Church from the very beginning, thus from the very beginning there was always a separation between tithing and the Churches business interests.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

Are you suggesting that people who donate "fortunes, businesses, etc. to the Church" are actually donating to a business, not a religious (tax-exempt) organization? If it makes a difference, I wonder if the IRS knows that.

[_harmony]

...
People have been donating their fortunes, businesses, etc. to the Church from the very beginning, thus from the very beginning there was always a separation between tithing and the Churches business interests.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

Are you suggesting that people who donate "fortunes, businesses, etc. to the Church" are actually donating to a business, not a religious (tax-exempt) organization? If it makes a difference, I wonder if the IRS knows that.

I suspect we are not going to see mak or obiwan on this thread again.