Christians do you follow the right religion?

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_SteelHead
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _SteelHead »

Shoot, now I am running contrary to two of the better thinkers on the board... and who know way more than me on the topic.

I will continue to dig.

500 ad - 1300 ad.

Where were the largest learning centers in the world? The largest libraries, universities, hospitals?

Baghdad's "House of Wisdom" is considered the first university in the world. Located at the crossroads of the greats civilizations at the time it drew knowledge from Europe, Arabia, China, India, etc., the merging point for western and eastern thought. It was via this route that the collar harness (pivotal tech here) migrated from China to Europe. Amongst other bits of Chinese and Indian technology, medicine etc.

Baghdad was the largest city in the world at the time. The principle center of learning in the world until the mongol invasion.

The Persian Dr.s were the most advanced in the world: Al-Kindi, Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi, Avicenna, whose texts on medicine and surgery written in 1025 were used as texts by most western universities until the 1700s.

Al-Kindi, Ibn Sahl, and AlHazen furthered the understanding of physics by building upon the works of the Greeks advancing the understanding and manufacture of optics; mirrors and lenses. AlHazen writings were translated into Latin around 1200 and were the basis for the European understaning of the field for then next 400 years.

He rejected the "emission theory" of Ptolemaic optics with its rays be emitted by the eye, and instead put forward the idea that light reflected in all directions in straight lines from all points of the objects being viewed and then entered the eye


Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī built upon the works of the Greeks and published The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing establishing algebra as its own field of math.

During the same time the western Europeans had pretty much fallen back on to hedge Dr.s and folk medicine. The centers of learning of western Europe paled to the size of the faculties and libraries available in Persia. And when universities were founded in western Europe (12th century) they borrowed heavily from the writings and learning of Persia. European medicine is founded on the translation of Byzantine and Arabic works.

Cordoba under the caliphate exported many of the ideas from Arabia to Europe. Sanitation, literacy, health care, were all better in Cordoba than in the christian neighbors to the north. Cordoba boasted great architecture, park and gardens, and one of the largest libraries in the world at the time Al-Ḥakam II with 400,000 volumes of Greek, Arabic, Hebrew and Latin writings.

Cordoba benefited from its Persian influence. Its denizens used toothpaste and deodorant..... can you say the same for the citizens of Paris at the time? Literacy rates, life expectancy, standard of living was all higher in Baghdad and Cordoba than in Paris, London, Rome etc.

The society was somewhat secular, it took the Christians returning from power for the Jews to be banished from Spain. Cordoba under the Caliph enjoyed a diverse culture and economy. Art, literature, poetry all flourished. To my perspective being ahl al-dhimma in the caliphate of Cordoba would have been much preferable to being a serf.

Which is not to say that there was no learning in western Europe but it paled to the scale and availability in Baghdad, and realizing that Persian learning was built upon the great traditions of the Greeks, Indians, Chinese, Egyptians, Rome, etc.. The Carolingian Empire had a bit of "Renaissance" and there were others, but the influence of the Arab world is stamped all over the Renaissances of the early and high middle ages.

I don't know about you, but I would have much rather lived in Cordoba than Paris, or Rome in the 10/11th century. Paris at the time was a little more than a muddy outpost on an island. ;)

The Dark Ages are called that for a reason. Between the plagues, the marauding vikings. the mongol hordes, the church's treatment of thinkers and heretics, I would pick 10/11th century Cordoba over Paris, London or Rome in a heartbeat.

And yes I would argue that it was the lifestyle, art, libraries, and schools of Cordoba that sparked the Italian Renaissance.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

SteelHead wrote:Where would you have rather lived in the 8-9th century, Western Europe or Baghdad?


In the Carolingian court. If you get to stack the deck by picking the best of the Muslim caliphate, I get to stack the deck by picking the best of Western Europe

SteelHead wrote:Cordoba under the Moores (Andalusia 10th - 11th centuries) or Paris?


Neither, Constantinople. I also don't do well with false dichotomies.
_SteelHead
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _SteelHead »

Ok, sorry for the dichotomy.

Constantinople/Byzantium would be high on my list also, preferable by far to London, Paris, Rome, etc.... but is it western Europe? I think they called it the Eastern Church for a reason.

I love the architecture of Cordoba, so it gets high marks.

Also, if I am remembering correctly most of us would have been serfs in the Carolingian dynasty.
I prefer dhimmitude under the Caliph.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _Samantabhadra »

Where would you have rather lived in the 8-9th century, Western Europe or Baghdad?


Neither. Constantinople.

EDIT: Aristotle beat me to it!
_Buffalo
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _Buffalo »

huckelberry wrote:Buffalo, I have some reservation about wrapping thousands of years history into a simple comparison. In general I do not share your perception. It would be closer to my concern to consider which culture developed secular humanism. I probably ask that because I do not see humanism as something outside of my faith. Because I find it such a natural part of myself I easily see it as connected to Christianity.


Secular humanism arose outside your Christian faith, and has since been an agent in reforming Christianity, along with the rest of the world. Christianity itself has had no positive effect in regards to reducing violence.
Last edited by Guest on Thu May 17, 2012 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

SteelHead wrote:Shoot, now I am running contrary to two of the better thinkers on the board...


Here's the main problem I see with your analysis. You tend to reify academic periodization (the Dark Ages) and geographic regions (Western Europe) when it suits your purpose. But notice when you analyze the Muslim caliphate, you generally choose specific examples (Baghdad, Cordoba). You thus explicitly choose the best of the caliphate while hoping to compare it to vague generalities which since the Renaissance have been tagged as being inferior and dark (mainly for polemical reasons).

To take one example of this, you picked Cordoba and Baghdad as the only two places I could have lived in the caliphate. Those are I admit nice choices. Why did you not pick North Africa? This was the bread basket of the Roman Empire, even up until late antiquity, surely it was still a going concern in the caliphate? No, the Muslim invasions in North Africa brought the entire region to ruin. The world of late antiquity vanished more completely here than in any other region of the former Roman Empire, a real dark ages. But why is this not considered a dark age when pre-Renaissance Europe is? Simple, Petrarch and other Renaissance polemicists didn't give a crap about this region and so had no reason to polemicize against it.

Why did you not pick Egypt or the Levant? Simple, because those areas simply kept on doing what they had always been doing and continued to flourish under minority Muslim rule. Is this Muslim or Christian? Hard to say. But their prosperity depended mainly on established farming and networks of trade in place long before the caliphate set up shop.

To pick another example, you can't really say that Cordoba influenced the Italian Renaissance (because it didn't), so you have to use the nebulous term "sparked." In the visual arts, what the Renaissance is most known for, the Muslim influence was precisely nil. In literature, the Renaissance was almost entirely native as the initial impulse was to copy classical Latin forms. As the Renaissance kicked into high gear it took on a Greek flavor as many Greek texts and scholars arrived on the Italian peninsula, fleeing the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople.

Your analysis also relies in some ways on equivocation. For example, the university, in the modern sense of the term, is a European invention. Of course there were centers of learning before this time, but they were not universities. Did Baghdad have great centers of learning? Yes. Were they universities in our sense of the term? No. Europe didn't have universities during the early middle ages because they had not been invented yet. There were however monastic schools, cathedral school, schools attached to courts, etc., and there scholars during this period doing good work such as Bede and Alquin.

You analysis also relies on what I'll call "the donut theory of medieval civilization." By this I mean you seem to equate civilization with Western Europe and the caliphate. This of course forgets the hole in the middle, the Byzantine Empire with Constantinople at the center. Doing this conveniently neglects a thriving Christian civilization with complex interchanges with the Muslim East. And the area responsible for preserving the Greek heritage which was then transmitted to the Renaissance. Muslims also preserved the Greek heritage, but that doesn't mean Europeans didn't, nor that the Muslim East was the primary vector of transmitting this material to the Renaissance.

I could continue, but I need to eat breakfast, and I hope you get the picture.
_Corpsegrinder
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _Corpsegrinder »

ludwigm wrote:http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/234268--catholicism-only-true-church-pope

He has spoken as a man. Popes can have a day off.
(if, and only if they don't cut off the hot line)

Yes, Pope Benedict is definitely speaking as a man, otherwise he would be “asking a sort of Mormon question” and “opening an “epistemological can of worms” when he asserts the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church and declares that all other Christian denominations are not true Churches.

Do you suppose Pope Benedict is a secret convert to Mormonism, since only Mormons do stuff like this?
_SteelHead
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _SteelHead »

I get the picture and your analysis is great. It is why I limited the scope of my ramblings to western Europe, and as noted Constantinople and its sphere were a center of learning, which is why it is high on my list.

I included Baghdad as it directly influenced Cordoba. I am by no means a historian, and just a guy who likes to read anything I can lay my hands on. I excluded northern Africa for the mere fact that it wasn't covered in my rambling readings, and in regards to the end results of the Moslem conquests of Africa, I am blissfully ignorant.

I think as history is influenced by culture our histories tend to overplay the contributions of western Europe and minimize the cultural and technological contributions that flowed from China, India, and elsewhere to the west through cultural interaction at hubs like Constantinople and Baghdad.

Having rambled that, I still think that the western church served in some forms to stagnate technological and cultural innovations.

Edited to add--
I also think the Italian renaissance included elements of engineering, invention, and architecture. Hence, the inclusion of my word sparked. I think Cordoba fostered free thinking and the open exchange of ideas that led to people being more willing to experiment and push against the norms. Re the above and the influence of the displaced from Constantinople to Italy via its decline and fall.
Last edited by Guest on Thu May 17, 2012 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Corpsegrinder
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _Corpsegrinder »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Rambo wrote:I'm sorry I am going to have to disagree with you guys. I think you guys are in the minority of thought.

If you ask most christians they will tell you that muslims, Mormons, JW's, sceintologists, etc don't have it right. They will say that their Jesus is the only way to salvation.

I have not met one christain say "Oh Mormonism is the path god has chosen for you. You know each person has their own path to god." A christian will tell a Mormon they are in the wrong church and worshipping the wrong Jesus. Don't tell me I'm wrong because I have witnessed this 100's of times on my mission.

So no it's not only Mormons that have this mindset.


Yes, but that's not the question you asked. You asked a "How do you know?" question, and that's not what is being asked or answered. Of course Christians think Muslims are wrong, otherwise they would be Muslims. This isn't about saying all paths are equal.

Still waiting for Mr. Spock to grace us with a dry and wordy explanation of why Christians are not going down an "epistemological rabbit hole" when they assert the rational and spiritual primacy of Christianity over Islam.
_huckelberry
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Re: Christians do you follow the right religion?

Post by _huckelberry »

Buffalo wrote:Secular humanism arose outside your Christian faith, and has since been an agent in reforming Christianity, along with the rest of the world. Christianity itself has had no positive effect in regards to reducing violence.


I do not think I want to resolve the meaning of the phrase, arose outside of your christian faith. It certainly does not exist outside of my Christian faith. If you wish to limit the sources of its rising to people who were deists or non believers you may do that for yourself. I see the events of its arising as occuring in a cultural context where Christianity has a huge role. ( I think we can share that unless I totally mistake you and you believe it arrived on a federation starship)

I think your comment about failing peace is much more realistic than proposing cultural backwardness as evidence of Christian failure.. Europe started as backwater at the time of the beginning of Christianity and has become the richest most successful society the world has ever known. It is silly to complain of 8th century limits. At that time Europe had suffered disaters and had hardly started to find itself.

But the success of Europe or western civilization with its Christianity is marred by war not failure of technology learning wealth or power.

So where is this peace flowing from secular humanism? I see a world in which the hatred of war runs deep. We are at war currently. The US has been at war for years. I grew up with war. I was born shortly after one of the worlds most ghastly wars. Are you speaking of some other planet?
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