Jason Bourne wrote:
I love it when people who want to be known as active LDS stalwarts have to plead, backpeddle and dance in order to ingnore the plain and simple teaching of Jesus Christ where he said not to judge and that we will be judged with that same judgement with which we judge.
Droopy wrote:[No one's dancing but you to preserve the rationalizations
Yes you certainly are. I am well familiar with the passages of scripture as well as teachings of LDS leaders on this subject. There is a distinguishing factor in both scripture and comments by GAs about this. Sure one must judge situations and behaviors in order to avoid becoming involved in things that can be risky and harmful both from a this life situation as well as ones standing before God. But judging and condemning people ferquently as you do here (see immediatly below) it what Jesus meant when he said to not judge and with the same judgement with which you judge you will be judged. I know you know these passages well. No need for me to quote them to you.
Based on how often you get on the high an mighty horse of pointing out my (alleged according to you) apostasy, covenant breaking (which you have no way in knowing where I stand on this since you do not interact with me in real life) you should be concerned. You often judge others harshly as well as quickly. You do it often simply because they view things (both politically and doctrinally) than you do.
for your unwillingness to obey and be faithful in living the gospel and upholding and defending the covenants you took upon yourself at baptism.
This us unrightous judgement. This is what D&C 64:9-11 is referring to when we are commanded to forgive all men and let the Lord Judge. You only know me from this board. Yet you blanketly condemn me (and so many others here) on a not infrequent basis. How do you know what I do and do not do in real life?
Now my memory may fail me some but I never recall judging others so harshly when I took the role of defender. I crossed swords in my day plenty with Harmony. I do not recall once when I was a hobby apologist ever questioning her about her TR and how she answers, etc. I stuck to debating the issues. I did not name call or denigrate her that I can recall. She can correct me if she is reading this.
Yet you do that very frequently with many NOM types here who may be struggling to maintain activity in the Church for many reasons but may be doing it in a modified way from you or what maybe they used to do. In fact this approach is often the main platform of your so called defense. You seek to diminish or attempt to gult the NOMer by being a bully about their stance in the Church. It is tiresome and boring really.
Nowhere in the scriptures is there a blanket, absolutist maxim that tells human beings not to judge.
Regarding the judgement of persons and there standing before God this seems fairly absolute:
Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what ajudgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
This is squirming, out-of-context piffle.
Tell that to Jesus who said what I quoted above.
We are not to judge unrighteousnesly; we are not to judge out of impure motives or for malicious, personal reasons, but we are to judge (inspect, discern, discriminate, think, reflect, ponder, weigh, and conclude) as a matter of principle and judge well, for our own sake, as well as for the sake of others who may need to be told the truth about themselves to their face now and then.
I think the first half of what you say above is accurate. The last half not so unless you have a stewardship over the person. Here you do not have that at all.
Stop being such a sanctimonious pansy and twisting in the wind over your own apostasy from the gospel.
So much for not name calling. Please don't plead innocence again as you do further above in this thread. Simply put you are an attack dog and you have little toleration for anyone who disagrees with you about anything. A brother in the gospel calling someone a pansy really seems outside the realm of what D&C 121 councils. Is this how you act towards in inactive family you are asked to home teach?
Clearly, its bothering you, at some level.
Are you a mind reader now? But no, Droopy, you are simply wrong. Don't read yourself into me. I am quite fine and happier than I have been in years. I know the truth about many things these days and see things as they really are. I wish they were different. I really do. I spent a few hours with my father today discussing much of this. I got some wise council from my dad, who is not active in the Church but very well read and studied in it. I won't bother to share it with you other than he very much encourages me to continue to make the LDS Church a large part of my life even in spite if the issues that are there. Disappointed?
By the way you have denigrated John Dehlin in misrepresenting him and calling him a wolf in sheeps clothing. Be honest Droopy.
John Delin is an thoroughly apostate critic of the Church and a "ravening wolf" among the flock in every scriptural sense of the term.
Didn't you say above you have never attacked John Dehlin? If what you say above is not an attack (and you have said it over and over again) I don't know what is. But I understand why you think he is a threat. Maybe you are right. Maybe not. But one thing I am sure of is John Dehlin has worked hard in keeping more people IN the LDS Church and has been more succesful at it than you have.
If you wish to whitewash and sanitize his behavior and philosophy, then you become his accomplice in this project to deracinate the Church of a number of its core principles and doctrines.
No Droopy. I am just honest about what he does. You are not and I have pointed our where you are not numerous times.
Droopy I may or may not respond to you if you have more to say. If I don't you should not interpret it as conceding any of your points. Honestly, conversation with you is just so unpleasent and I have to work very hard at it to keep it civil and not to be vindictive or nasty. Maybe I am a pansy. But rather perhaps in spite of the the often vile way you post I still view you as a human being and child of God and I don't like to sink to low manners and incivility if I can avoid it, and I know at times with you and others, I have posted in such a way. I started heading that way in this post but put the brakes on.
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