FIRM Exults in "Firing" of Heartland Model Critics

[_MrStakhanovite]

Most early Book of Mormon readers, Joseph included, seem to have assumed a "hemispheric" model. Look at the map; see Panama? That's the obvious "narrow neck of land," right? Well, most of the action takes place south of that feature.

lol

32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small bneck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

It's only a day and half journy across across the narrow parts of Panama if...you know...the jungle wasn't there....and that 40 miles is across nice flat land....which would mean the San Blas Range and other natural features would have to be removed....

It is this kind of clear and concise thinking that has allowed you to clearly lay out the case for libel against DCP.

[_Fence Sitter]

It's only a day and half journey across across the narrow parts of Panama if...you know...the jungle wasn't there....and that 40 miles is across nice flat land....which would mean the San Blas Range and other natural features would have to be removed....

It is this kind of clear and concise thinking that has allowed you to clearly lay out the case for libel against DCP.

Can you make it in a day & a half if you're riding a tapir?

[_MrStakhanovite]

Can you make it in a day & a half if you're riding a tapir?

I was thinking along the lines that these Nephites won the genetic lotto and were all athletic machines of the highest caliber, able to clear a mile of dense jungle in just under 70 minutes. They’d also need to really good intuitive sense of direction because you aren’t going to see many stars to navigate by with that thick canopy overhead a lot of the time, except when you are traversing difficult rocky terrain with all that food and water on your back, because you can’t stop to hunt and forage.

These Nephites must have made Spartans look like a bunch of candy ass posers. It’s a shame they managed to destroy all their traces before winking out of existence.

[_MrStakhanovite]

Wait, I know! There was a really good ancient transit system that the Nephites used to cross in a day n half, a system of roads that allowed a normal Nephite to cross all this terrain without the struggle, but not as sturdy as the roads the Romans laid down, something that could be super effective, but disintegrated before they could be discovered by Europeans.

[_Chap]

Wait, I know! There was a really good ancient transit system that the Nephites used to cross in a day n half, a system of roads that allowed a normal Nephite to cross all this terrain without the struggle, but not as sturdy as the roads the Romans laid down, something that could be super effective, but disintegrated before they could be discovered by Europeans.

Actually, the automobile lobby bought it out and closed it down.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

There's a relatively narrow neck by Buffalo that's about 12 miles wide that separates a couple of inland "seas". I think Meldrum's theory fits perfectly within the Book of Mormon narrative.

- VRDRC

[_Drifting]

That is confusing to me as well. After all, Joseph Smith was also convinced that the happenings in the Book of Mormon took place in the US.

Now, there has been some apologetic discussion on whether or not this was simply an assumption as opposed to a revelation on Joseph Smith's part, but it seems pretty obvious to me that Joseph Smith was convinced that the Book of Mormon happened right here. After all, he also named Jackson County, Missouri as the Garden of Eden.

And the Garden of Eden is not particularly relevant to the Book of Mormon.

Most early Book of Mormon readers, Joseph included, seem to have assumed a "hemispheric" model. Look at the map; see Panama? That's the obvious "narrow neck of land," right? Well, most of the action takes place south of that feature.

Later on, after reading about Stephens and Catherwood, Joseph started to zero in on Mexico and Guatemala.

The so-called "heartland" model is not the traditional "hemispheric" model. It's a "Great Lakes LGT." You can read about it here.

Regards,
Pahoran

Hello Mr Pahoran.
I'm wondering just how far you intend drifting away from the official (dare I say doctrinal) position of the Church?

It is clear that most of the really significant action in the Book of Mormon takes place a tad further North than you would have readers of this thread believe...

CUMORAH, HILL
See also Book of Mormon; Moroni, Son of Mormon; Smith, Joseph, Jr..
A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.

Nephites gathered at Cumorah, Morm. 6:2–4
Cumorah was in a land of many waters, Morm. 6:4
Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah, Morm. 6:6
All but twenty and four Nephites were slain at Cumorah, Morm. 6:11
We hear glad tidings from Cumorah, D&C 128:20
Joseph Smith took plates from the Hill Cumorah, Joseph Smith—H 1:42, 50–54, 59

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/cumorah-hill?lang=eng

Perhaps you would be better served re-taking Seminary and Institute to form at least a rudimentary knowledge of what the Church believes and teaches with regards to where the big events in the Book of Mormon take place. Rather than propagating your own apostate geography. It seems you are straying from the (Lamanite) reservation...in a desperate attempt to relocate the events as far away from people with shovels and archeology degrees as possible. Why is that I wonder...?

[_Nightlion]

That is confusing to me as well. After all, Joseph Smith was also convinced that the happenings in the Book of Mormon took place in the US.

Now, there has been some apologetic discussion on whether or not this was simply an assumption as opposed to a revelation on Joseph Smith's part, but it seems pretty obvious to me that Joseph Smith was convinced that the Book of Mormon happened right here. After all, he also named Jackson County, Missouri as the Garden of Eden.

Some things just get passed over and missed along the lines of strict logic. That the Land of Missouri was where Adam and Eve lived and where Cain slew Abel is a given. But to say that the Garden of Eden was in the same spot does not follow the word of Scripture. Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden toward the East. If they then lived in Missouri the Garden of Eden is probably buried under the Rocky Mountains when the Earth reeled under the flood to hide the Garden of Eden from future generations.

If a great deal of excitement lit the fires of faith, meager as that faith was, sometimes stemming from the discoveries of the Mound Builders and that brought people into the Church I see little reason for Joseph Smith to correct everyone and toss cold water on this enthusiasm. Even to the point in challenging them to call him on the Zelph the Lamanite yarn because none of them knew their Book of Mormons well enough to call him on its impossibility and cowered to him rather than seek the powers of Zion for themselves and not rely upon him for their powers. He was giving up the hope of Zion having failed by Zion's Camp to redeem Zion according to their disbelief and knew that the people were never going to get it in his generation. From this point on Joseph was giving up. He needed only to ensure that the foundation he established not be lost until the Lord brought forth his own kingdom without hands from the ruins of the Gentile Restoration.

That's how I see it.

[_Pahoran]

Hello Mr Pahoran.
I'm wondering just how far you intend drifting away from the official (dare I say doctrinal) position of the Church?

The Church has no "official," much less "doctrinal," position on Book of Mormon geography. Geography is not a question of doctrine.

It is clear that most of the really significant action in the Book of Mormon takes place a tad further North than you would have readers of this thread believe...

To anyone who actually reads the Book of Mormon, almost all of the "really significant action" takes place south of the Narrow Neck of Land. Only the recent "Great Lakes" or "Heartland" model locates the Narrow Neck anywhere close to where Joseph Smith lived.

CUMORAH, HILL
See also Book of Mormon; Moroni, Son of Mormon; Smith, Joseph, Jr..
A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.

Nephites gathered at Cumorah, Morm. 6:2–4
Cumorah was in a land of many waters, Morm. 6:4
Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah, Morm. 6:6
All but twenty and four Nephites were slain at Cumorah, Morm. 6:11
We hear glad tidings from Cumorah, D&C 128:20
Joseph Smith took plates from the Hill Cumorah, Joseph Smith—H 1:42, 50–54, 59

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/cumorah-hill?lang=eng

Yes, you flourish that at me as if it somehow supports your position. (Is it your position? Do you actually believe what you are arguing, or are you being a hypocrite?) However, the record shows that Moroni's plates were not buried in Mormon's Cumorah, per Momon 6:6. The connection between Mormon's Cumorah and the New York hill modernly called Cumorah is a matter of popular usage, if not sentiment, and has no basis in revealed doctrine.

Perhaps you would be better served re-taking Seminary and Institute to form at least a rudimentary knowledge of what the Church believes and teaches with regards to where the big events in the Book of Mormon take place. Rather than propagating your own apostate geography. It seems you are straying from the (Lamanite) reservation...in a desperate attempt to relocate the events as far away from people with shovels and archeology degrees as possible. Why is that I wonder...?

Perhaps you would be better served trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_hobo1512]