Santa Claus Think

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Santa Claus Think

Post by _Darth J »

SANTA CLAUS THINK

The Witnesses

Image

What most children have been taught and believe as truth.

Almost everyone growing up hears or reads The Night Before Christmas, in which Clement Clarke Moore claims to have personally witnessed Santa Claus commit an act of reverse burglary in Moore's home:

He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself;


Clement Clarke Moore is usually thought of as an honest family man, who would not lie to countless children across several generations. Numerous parents have also told their children that they have seen Santa come into their homes on Christmas Eve, but these adults carefully explain to their children that Santa has only been seen after the children have gone to sleep.

Despite such claims about needing to go to bed before he appears, some children also report seeing Santa in person---sometimes in flagrante delicto with one of their parents:

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Claus
Underneath the mistletoe last night.


And of course hundreds of thousands of children believe they have actually had their photograph taken with Santa Claus at the mall or other places.

Image

Santa also is alleged to make personal appearances at highly public venues, such as the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade or numerous street corners at holiday time.

With all this impressive evidence, the child's argument goes, surely at least some of these sightings must be real. Not all of these witnesses could simply be mistaken or lying or crazy. And most of all, why would an adult tell a child he or she had seen Santa if it wasn't true? Why would grown-ups lie to little kids?

CRITIC'S ARGUMENTS

Significant details and problems that most children are not aware of.

* Clement Clarke Moore's reliability as a witness is dubious. A Visit From St. Nicholas was originally printed anonymously. It was only after he was pressured by his children that Moore claimed to have given this statement. Additionally, textual analysis has indicated that someone other than Moore likely wrote the statement. This makes Moore's claim to have seen Santa Claus in person highly questionable.

* I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus was written by a 13 year-old boy and was initially banned by the Roman Catholic Church. Since the Catholic Church has an interested in promoting both "Christ's Mass" and visions of saints (i.e., St. Nicholas), the Catholic Church's skepticism of this teenage boy's account is curious. Further, the claimed witness, Jimmy Boyd, was also a popular musician at the time he gave his account, suggesting that he may have simply made up a song about seeing Santa for commercial purposes.

* Malls, parades, charitable organizations, and even the White House are known to hire men to pretend to be Santa Claus during the holidays (sometimes involving professionals hired to portray Mrs. Claus and/or elves as well). Many adult men groom themselves and take on other purported physical characteristics of Santa Claus in order to hire themselves out for this role.

* The bones of St. Nicholas are kept in a Catholic church in Bari, Italy. Since St. Nicholas is known to be dead, it is improbable that the person children and other alleged witnesses believe they are seeing is in fact St. Nicholas, a.k.a. Santa Claus.

Witnesses to other legendary characters.

While many children claim to have met Santa Claus in person, keep in mind that in the modern world, children also claim to have met the following characters in person: Darth Vader, various superheroes, Elmo and Cookie Monster, and Barney the dinosaur. It is known for a fact that Darth Vader, super heroes like Spiderman and Batman, and Muppets like Elmo and Cookie Monster are fictional characters. Moreover, dinosaurs have been extinct for over 65 million years, and theropod dinosaurs did not drag their tails on the ground, as Barney is seen doing. Thus, it is highly unlikely that Barney is a real tyrannosaurid, as portrayed to children. Moreover, the fact that you can pay people to dress up like these characters to appear at parties or other events suggests that the "Santa Claus" children have met and/or had their picture taken with is also a normal person being paid to pretend to be Santa.

Witnesses to other amazing events.

Although some children will tell their peers that they have personally seen Santa Clause come down the chimney in their house, children are also known to relate stories about meeting dragons and monsters and other fantastical encounters. Children also sometimes say that the floor in their homes is made of hot lava. Since hot lava poses serious health risks to humans, not to mention the potential legal liability a building contractor would face by building a house with hot lava for floors, it is extremely unlikely that hot lava has ever been used as a building material in someone's house, notwithstanding the accounts related by many children to the contrary.

Reliability of children as witnesses.

In common law, children were historically presumed to be incompetent to testify if they were below a certain age. Even today, although the presumption that children are per se incompetent has largely been abrogated, establishing the competency of a child witness requires special care. This is because children are generally known to be easily influenced and to sometimes have difficulty discerning reality from things they have imagined.

How should it have been done?

If Clement Clarke Moore really was a witness of Santa Claus, it is troublesome that he initially published his account anonymously (assuming that he in fact wrote that account). One would expect him to have told other people about this remarkable event immediately. Yet there are no records or affidavits from him until long after the claimed event.

Similarly, in the case of Jimmy Boyd, there is no record of his father divorcing his mother over her alleged adultery with Santa Claus. Further, Jimmy Boyd knew that his father had cataracts, making it unrealistic for him to expect his father to have been able to see the intimacy between his mother and Santa. Far from having a problematic marriage, Leslie Boyd worked hard and sacrificed for his family, suggesting that Jimmy's mother would remain faithful to her husband, rather than breaking her marriage vows with a corpulent, bearded individual from the North Pole. Instead of submitting his account to academic journals or established news outlets, Jimmy Boyd shared his account of seeing Santa on venues like The Ed Sullivan Show, implying that Jimmy Boyd was making up a story for money rather than trying to proffer serious evidence for the existence of Santa.

Analogy

If some little kid came up to you and swore up and down that he really saw Batman, what would you think? Is it more reasonable that Bruce Wayne is a real person who fights crime dressed up as a bat? Or that this kid saw something and assumed in his childish naïvété that it was the "real" Batman?

Responses to these issues by apologists.

In a famous newspaper editorial, a little girl named Virginia allegedly wrote a letter to the editor asking if Santa Claus was real. We will leave it to readers to consider the plausibility of a little girl writing a newspaper editor to ask a question like this. In any case, the New York Sun printed an editorial, notably unsigned, presenting the ad hoc argument that Santa has some kind of metaphysical nature, which contradicts the physical manifestations claimed by the alleged eyewitnesses. The Sun's apologetic relied heavily on the canard that "absence of proof is not proof of absence."

"Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world."

Additionally, both adults and children have invented an apologetic theory that all of these various "Santas" who make public appearances are actually "helpers" for the real Santa, and thus the fact that you can pay an impostor to defraud children is asserted as evidence in favor of the existence of a real Santa Claus.

Another theory was presented in the 1947 apologetic film, Miracle on 34th Street. This theory suggests that Santa is real based on the mere fact that children believe he is real. This is a classic example of circular reasoning. Note: the courtroom scene in this film also relies on a factual error, in which a judge permits hearsay testimony from children as evidence that Santa is real---"Thomas Mara, Jr. testifies that his father had told him that Santa was real and that 'My daddy wouldn't tell me anything that wasn't so. Would you, daddy?'" Under the rules of evidence, such testimony would not be admissible to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

Critic's response.

Really? Really?

Conclusion

We at Santa Claus Think have never met a sane person over the age of 12 who seriously believes he or she has seen Santa Claus in person, or that anyone else has, either. The only reason a rational adult would believe that someone has really seen Santa Claus is that he or she is desperately clinging to a fantasy because it makes him/her feel good, and because he or she was raised to believe it without examining the evidence.
_Sammy Jankins
_Emeritus
Posts: 1864
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Santa Claus Think

Post by _Sammy Jankins »

Funny how people stop believing in Santa Claus, but they can't leave it alone.
_Mica Hunt
_Emeritus
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: Santa Claus Think

Post by _Mica Hunt »

To infer that the witnesses to Santa Claus cannot be reliable because others have also been witnesses to Darth Vader or Batman is illogical. Just because some children mistakenly believe they have met the real Darth Vader does not mean children are mistaken when they believe they have met the real Santa Claus.

Here is what I saw: testimonies of people who say they have seen Santa, and then a host of critic arguments against these witnesses. None of which refuted the witnesses at all. It's all a bunch of possibilities or maybes or could be's. No solid proof. Nothing in this OP refutes that many children really believe they have seen Santa Claus.

But of course since the author of the OP doesn't believe in Santa anymore, it just may be hard for him to see it because of his agenda. And that is all it is: an agenda. Look how one-sided the OP is. It presents none of the evidence in favor of the children and certain adults who have seen Santa Claus in person.

This OP is not faith-promoting at all. It is just meant to create doubt so children will stop believing in Santa Claus. And this is because some grown-ups are bitter and disillusioned because they did not get everything they wanted for Christmas. Most of the grown-ups I know who stopped believing just had unrealistic expectations about Santa, and when they did not get every toy they wanted, there goes their faith. And now they want little kids to be as bitter and disillusioned as they are. If this OP was balanced it would talk more about the reasons to believe the kids who think they saw Santa Claus.
_son of Ishmael
_Emeritus
Posts: 1690
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 1:46 am

Re: Santa Claus Think

Post by _son of Ishmael »

Mica Hunt wrote:To infer that the witnesses to Santa Claus cannot be reliable because others have also been witnesses to Darth Vader or Batman is illogical. Just because some children mistakenly believe they have met the real Darth Vader does not mean children are mistaken when they believe they have met the real Santa Claus.

Here is what I saw: testimonies of people who say they have seen Santa, and then a host of critic arguments against these witnesses. None of which refuted the witnesses at all. It's all a bunch of possibilities or maybes or could be's. No solid proof. Nothing in this OP refutes that many children really believe they have seen Santa Claus.

But of course since the author of the OP doesn't believe in Santa anymore, it just may be hard for him to see it because of his agenda. And that is all it is: an agenda. Look how one-sided the OP is. It presents none of the evidence in favor of the children and certain adults who have seen Santa Claus in person.

This OP is not faith-promoting at all. It is just meant to create doubt so children will stop believing in Santa Claus. And this is because some grown-ups are bitter and disillusioned because they did not get everything they wanted for Christmas. Most of the grown-ups I know who stopped believing just had unrealistic expectations about Santa, and when they did not get every toy they wanted, there goes their faith. And now they want little kids to be as bitter and disillusioned as they are. If this OP was balanced it would talk more about the reasons to believe the kids who think they saw Santa Claus.



There are only three reasons why people quit believing in Santa Claus.
1) Sin. They want to be naughty.
2) Somebody offended them
3) They are too lazy to live the life that Santa asks them to live in order to get gifts.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Re: Santa Claus Think

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

son of Ishmael wrote:They want to be naughty.

Nailed it.
_The Mighty Builder
_Emeritus
Posts: 1593
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:48 pm

Re: Santa Claus Think

Post by _The Mighty Builder »

Darth J you Viper, you Blasphemer, you Servant of Satan, you Evil Speaker of the North Pole

Know ye not that In the Mouths of Two or Three Children SHALL all Santa's existence be established.

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not Get Presents from Santa.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the North Pole

Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto Santa: for of such is the North Pole.
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Re: Santa Claus Think

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

It just hit me that the elves are almost certainly the lost tribes of Israel.
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Santa Claus Think

Post by _DrW »

Love this thread.

Well done, all.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Re: Santa Claus Think

Post by _Sethbag »

I don't recall any of the witnesses recanting their statements about Santa Claus before their deaths.

Surely this has some probative value.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Philo Sofee
_Emeritus
Posts: 6660
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:04 am

Re: Santa Claus Think

Post by _Philo Sofee »

The Mighty Builder wrote:Darth J you Viper, you Blasphemer, you Servant of Satan, you Evil Speaker of the North Pole

Know ye not that In the Mouths of Two or Three Children SHALL all Santa's existence be established.

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not Get Presents from Santa.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the North Pole

Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto Santa: for of such is the North Pole.


+10 :lol: TEARS rolling down my cheeks, sides splitting!!!! STOP IT, STOP IT NOW you are KILLING me with laughter!
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
Post Reply