Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:
Chap wrote:Perhaps we are both writing to persuade other readers, rather than each other. I don't have a problem with that - it seems quite normal for a board of this kind.


Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.


Chap wrote:What can the man mean?

My post did not attribute any statement to Kishkumen, but merely responded to his complaints about our failure to 'interact' by suggesting that we might in fact be engaged in a different kind of activity.

Kishkumen gets to post the way he wants. I on the other hand get to post the way I want. People who want to can read both, or either, or neither of us. Neither of us is obliged to read the other. I'm fine with that.


Kishkumen wrote:
You know very well what I mean, and I am certainly entitled to ask that you deal with my posts honestly.

Whether you do so or not is only a reflection on your character.


Honest to goodness, I really don't have the faintest idea. Nor do I have the slightest motivation for putting a lot of effort into misrepresenting you. What would be the point?

Maybe you are a tad oversensitive? Maybe I am as thick as a plank? Maybe you express yourself just a bit less unambiguously than you think you do? Maybe my reading skills are in need of a refresher course?

Maybe one or both of us just needs to chill out somewhat?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _Kishkumen »

Chap wrote:Honest to goodness, I really don't have the faintest idea. Nor do I have the slightest motivation for putting a lot of effort into misrepresenting you. What would be the point?

Maybe you are a tad oversensitive? Maybe I am as thick as a plank? Maybe you express yourself just a bit less unambiguously than you think you do? Maybe my reading skills are in need of a refresher course?

Maybe one or both of us just needs to chill out somewhat?


I don't know, Chap. It is all so mysterious. I guess we don't get along very well.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_angsty
_Emeritus
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:27 am

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _angsty »

Shiloh wrote:From RfM : http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1 ... sg-1175110

A friend sent me the following:

---------
Years ago I joined a very exclusive and expensive club. The annual dues and occasional assessments are huge, but I can afford the expense by cutting back on other things. I joined for the social experience, the many contacts, the activities for my family. The club is quite well-off financially. It owns several buildings in town and at the beach, which as members we are allowed to use. The club was founded many years ago by a prominent local man and his friends.

I recently learned that the founder (long ago deceased) was involved in a huge financial scandal and served time in the penitentiary. The main clubhouse is not (as they claimed when I joined) on the National Historical Register, but is a recently built replica of a European chateau. The portrait of the founder that hangs in the clubhouse is not by Norman Rockwell, but was painted by a local amateur.

Since I am a UK citizen, I want to file fraud charges against the current club leadership under the same UK fraud act that has been used to charge Thomas Monson of the Mormon church. Some of my attorney friends pointed out:

- I joined, not based on the false information, but for reasons having nothing to do with whether what the club told me was true.
- I have paid my dues only in order to remain a member of the club and enjoy its benefits, not because I believed the incorrect information.
- The club's purpose in not giving me correct information was not to influence my decision to become a member or to remain a member.

They said that few Mormons joined the church in order to learn about the life of Abraham from the papyrus, or about the age of the human race or the origin of the Indians. If they did, they were rather stupid, since accurate information on those subjects is easily available without joining any organization. In other words, there is little causal relationship between the incorrect information and the reasons people become and remain members.
----------

I wasn't quite sure what to tell him.


Some interesting rebuttals on RfM but since we have several attorneys here, I'd be interested in hearing what you think about this argument.


First of all, I'm not a fan of the court case. It doesn't strike me as a great idea, but whatever. It's still interesting. I'm also not a lawyer. I am tired, so I might be missing something here, but it seems like the analogy is off more than a bit.

In my experience, people don't usually join the church because they think it's fun and a great place to network and raise a family, or anything analogous to tangible benefits like what the club provides. People usually join the church and stay in it because they believe it's "true" (whatever that actually means), and that their eternal salvation depends on it. And they usually believe it's true and their eternal salvation depends on it because of what they've been taught-- because they've been presented a pitch, an assemblage of purported facts, and a method for ascertaining the truth of it. If they buy into the method, and have the right experience with the purported facts, and it suits them, then they join the church. Tangible benefits like social experiences, networking opportunities, etc., are usually incidental.

In the club scenario, the foundation of the club and character of its leadership have nothing to do with the benefits of membership, or the reasons people join the club. Members joined because of the list of tangible benefits. The member didn't join because of the club's history, and is still getting what they paid for even if the club founder is a creep.

But in the church/church member scenario, the facts of the church's foundation matter; they are a critical part of the sales pitch taught by missionaries with the express purpose of winning converts. Those stories-- stories of the restoration, translation of sacred scripture, Joseph Smith's virtuous character and prophetic calling-- are the things people believe to be true when they join the church. Given a different set of facts-- information about Joseph Smith's extra-marital activities, business ventures, illegal activities, etc.-- a potential convert or BIC member might not have come to the conclusion that the church is "true" or necessary for salvation and wouldn't have invested.

The club analogy ignores the role that the teachings of the church, including the stories of its foundation and the character of its leadership, play in persuading members to continue as such, believing that they will reap eternal rewards for doing so. In the club analogy, the facts of the club's sordid past have no bearing on the benefits it presently provides. In the church scenario, the experience members/potential members have while processing the stories and facts of the church's past are the very reason they believe that the church can deliver the benefits it purportedly provides.

Again, I'm tired, so I could be missing something obvious. It just seems like the analogy doesn't work unless it's changed to describe a club that attracts and sustains its membership primarily through a sales-pitch featuring compelling foundational tales which are later discovered to be problematic. When you throw that in, it doesn't quite support the position it's being used to support because the problematic history can't be brushed off as a concern of peripheral importance.
_Tarski
_Emeritus
Posts: 3059
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:57 pm

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _Tarski »

I don't see the similarity with the club dues at at all. The whole reason this type of legal action seems insane is because we have just completely and totally internalized the idea that religion is an exception or gets a pass in ways nothing else does.
On top of that the club notion contradicts the church's own self understanding.



"I joined, not based on the false information, but for reasons having nothing to do with whether what the club told me was true."


Essentially everyone I know that joined the Mormon church, did so exactly because they came to believe it to be true and that in turn was based in part on the supposed honest testimony of other trusted respected individuals. And tue in what sense? The simple sense that the story is literally true---Gods, plates, angels, Nephites, the vision, and so on.
When one joins a religion, it is normally important that the religion is judged to be true. This is doubly so for Mormonism with its emphasis on testimony and matters of literal historical alleged fact. The very fact that missionaries act to get members to believe (in people, places, prophets, angels, gods, and events), to get a testimony, proves that Mormonism itself (to personify a bit) totally understands that everything depends on the truth of the novel claims. Joining for social reasons is not encouraged at all (and is in any case nuts in my opinion).

"- I have paid my dues only in order to remain a member of the club and enjoy its benefits, not because I believed the incorrect information."


Benefits??? Really?
I paid tithing because I was assured and convinced that the money was required of me by God who ran the only true church on earth. If if wasn't true, I wouldn't pay and I might add that the church acts in such a way as to support that reasoning. Once again, the importance of the truth claim and its connection with tithing is implicitly emphasized by the church itself.

In my mind supposed benefits are only benefits if the whole thing is not based on a lie. One could get similar social/solidarity benefits by being a Bigfoot enthusiast, a Scientologist, or even a member of the Nazi party.



- The club's purpose in not giving me correct information was not to influence my decision to become a member or to remain a member.


The churches purpose in giving or withholding, emphasizing or playing down, information is exactly to influence both the decision to join and the decision to remain.
We are not asked to be members on the basis of social needs or to join regardless of truth claims. Truth claims are the offered reason for everything--the whole point as it were. It is alleged to be God's true church restored by a prophet and there is no parsing of words or metaphorical, postmodern or purely pragmatic angle on any of it.

If it were true as explained by missionaries, we would be obliged to pray, attend church and pay tithes even if like Job, we saw no benefits at all. God requires it.

Nothing is left without the truth claims and that is exactly the attitude taken by the leaders themselves and is the underlying assumption at the base of every conversion effort and almost every sermon.

Now, I know that since religion gets a super-pass, there is almost no chance of the legal action being successful. But knowingly getting people to pay money and devote their lives by telling them a substantial, material and relevant falsehood is "fraud" in any other walk of life.


The church isn't a club and it doesn't present itself as one. It makes truth claims on matters of alleged fact and bases all requirements on that premise.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Mormon Think
_Emeritus
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:45 am

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _Mormon Think »

Madison54 wrote:Here's what Richard Packham posted today ( http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1175802 ):

UK 2006 Fraud Act

I suggest that before anybody comments on the Tom Phillips case against Thomas Monson, they should read the exact wording of the law on which it is based, the "2006 Fraud Act":


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/contents

Unfortunately, I am guilty of doing exactly that. I have made comments in forums and here without reading the law, and it caused me to misunderstand some basic things, since I was assuming (wrongly) that it was similar to what we Americans call "fraud."

First off, the name of the law is misleading for Americans, since in America "fraud" is a civil action, not a crime, and has numerous elements that must be proven before the court finds fraud (see my discussion at http://packham.n4m.org/lawsuit.htm ). A better title - if I can be so presumptuous as to suggest this to the Brits - would have been "2006 False Advertising Act," since that is essentially what it is.

The UK law is very broad. It does not require a number of things that we think of as associated with "fraud":

- no actual damage is necessary;
- no actual victim is necessary;
- actual falsity of the claims is unnecessary, only that they are "misleading" or "might be false";

Therefore,
- no "reasonable reliance" by a victim is required;
- no causal relationship between the false statements and the victim's actions is required.


The link he gave is interesting and informative (regarding the 2006 Fraud Act).


Sounds like he certainly is not at a loss for words now. He's not the only lawyer that is rethinking this after doing some research.

Dan
_Tchild
_Emeritus
Posts: 2437
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:44 am

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _Tchild »

Kishkumen wrote:This hypothetical scenario gets at many if not most of the reasons why I am baffled by the summons.

I would be interested in meeting a single Mormon who joined or participated (believed) in Mormonism with any of these criteria:

I joined, not based on the false information, but for reasons having nothing to do with whether what the club told me was true.
- I have paid my dues only in order to remain a member of the club and enjoy its benefits, not because I believed the incorrect information.
- The club's purpose in not giving me correct information was not to influence my decision to become a member or to remain a member.
_Shiloh

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _Shiloh »

Tchild wrote:I would be interested in meeting a single Mormon who joined or participated (believed) in Mormonism with any of these criteria:


Participation and belief are two very very different things.

I have plenty of TBM family members who could care less about any of these specific beliefs. Their motivation is much more cultural and community-based even though deep deep down -- they believe. I have other family members who don't believe but participate actively simply because they enjoy it.
_Bazooka
_Emeritus
Posts: 10719
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 am

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _Bazooka »

Tchild wrote:I would be interested in meeting a single Mormon...

I think you've got the wrong board pal... :biggrin:
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_suniluni2
_Emeritus
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:36 am

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _suniluni2 »

Kishkumen wrote:I prefer that people be allowed to believe in silly things


And the fraud case does nothing infringe on their right to believe in silly things. Not sure why you can't understand that.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Richard Packham at a loss for words over the TP case

Post by _Kishkumen »

suniluni2 wrote:And the fraud case does nothing infringe on their right to believe in silly things. Not sure why you can't understand that.


Oh, I understand that full well, suniluni2. It may, however, infringe on the way they associate in an organization that accepts donations on the basis of such silly beliefs.

If you take all of my comments in context, instead of isolating specific parts like this, maybe it will help you understand what I am saying.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Post Reply