Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain Women

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_beanboots
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Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain Women

Post by _beanboots »

David Holland is a professor at Harvard Divinity School.

This is what he had to say in an interview with HDS Public Communications:

On Monday, June 23, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) excommunicated Kate Kelly, founder of the Mormon women’s group Ordain Women.
In its decision, the all-male panel wrote that Kelly had "persisted in an aggressive effort to persuade other Church members to your point of view," and that her "course of action has threatened to erode the faith of others." Kelly, whose group used training workshops and public protests to promote the ordination of women, said that she would not give up her effort because "in God’s eyes, I am equal."

Harvard Divinity School professor David F. Holland earned a degree in history from Brigham Young University. His book, Sacred Borders: Continuing Revelation and Canonical Restraint in Early America, brings into dialogue a wide range of figures in American religious life, including the Mormons. He recently provided his perspective on the excommunication, what it means for the faithful, and the challenges that the LDS Church faces in the future.

Harvard Divinity School (HDS): Can you put the decision to excommunicate Kelly in historical context? Has the ordination of women always been a charged issue for the LDS?

David Holland: The place of women in the Church has historically been a matter of significant interest and concern, but sustained debate about the specific issue of ordination to the priesthood is a relatively recent phenomenon. Some observers—citing such evidence as the prominence of the LDS women’s organization Relief Society, early suffrage for the women of Utah, or the presence of a maternal deity in LDS theology—have argued for the ways in which Mormonism empowers women. Others—pointing to the history of polygamy, the Church’s very public opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment, or the fact that the maternal deity is rarely spoken of—see the Church as either obtusely discriminatory or willfully misogynistic. The question of ordination has emerged as the latest (and perhaps most intractable) battleground between these camps.

HDS: How does the current controversy fit within the LDS belief system?

Holland: It is important to note that concerns about gender—whether heterosexual, homosexual, or non-binary—are radically intensified by LDS theology. As opposed to many Christian belief systems in which sexual identity often seems epiphenomenal to the larger divine plan, LDS doctrine suggests that the very purpose of human existence is wrapped up with procreation, family formation, and gendered complementarity.

A central tenet of Mormonism is that this earth is a training ground for souls learning to become like a divine Mother and Father. It holds that the creation, the loving, and the raising of new life are among the most essential human experiences to that end. All questions that seem to impinge on gendered roles, family dynamics, and sexuality therefore carry almost unbelievable weight. The Mormon elevation of motherhood is thus much more than a vestige of separate-spheres sentimentality—though there has been plenty of that. And Mormon resistance to changing social norms that seem to challenge traditional gender identities is more than mere patriarchal anxiety—though Latter-day Saints have had their share of that as well.

The fact of the matter is that, for very vital theological reasons, issues like gay marriage and female ordination look fundamentally different through Mormon eyes than they do to a Unitarian or an Episcopalian or even a Southern Baptist. Have these theological ideas provided cover for basic human prejudice, episodes of brutality, and consolidations of gendered power? They undoubtedly have. Is that all that’s at stake here? I don’t think so. Many Mormons see the essence of their cosmology at the root of this debate.

The flip side of all this is that, just as gender functions differently in Mormonism, so does priesthood. Mormon priesthood isn’t just the right to lead a congregation or officiate over sacramental ceremonies. It's a deeply sacerdotal endowment that empowers its holders to speak, act, and heal in the name of God. It alters one’s relationship to the divine.

The fact that ordination to priesthood office is distributed to all observant LDS men—but only men—draws an especially stark gendered line. The apparent exclusion of women from such a sacerdotal gift strikes many as particularly egregious. Feelings on this matter, for obvious reasons, run very high.

In the minds of other Mormons, however, that line of gendered distinction in the priesthood is essentially effaced by a temple theology in which women are clothed in priestly vestments—including the widely discussed Mormon undergarment—and pronounced priestesses. The idea is that just as men become fathers through a woman’s divinely endowed maternal capacity, so women become endowed with priesthood power through that same divine marriage. Through such a marriage, men and women can both be parents and they can both be priests—and thus through that relationship they both progress toward godliness—even as each retains certain complementary functional distinctions, such as the fact that men are responsible to hold priesthood office. Mormons that make this case recognize that not all humans will have such a marriage in this life, but LDS theology provides for the fulfillment of such a union in the next. Latter-day Saints of this persuasion are inclined to quote St. Paul: "Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."

Critics of this argument point to the all-male hierarchy in many of the governing councils of the Church—including its highest—as evidence that such doctrines provide a convenient smokescreen for an obviously gendered monopoly on real institutional power. They say it hides a larger culture of female subordination that might take its cues from such Church structures or organically develop in the void created by the exclusion of female voices.

HDS: How does this decision fit in the context of Mormonism's struggle to maintain its identity as it moves into mainstream culture? Does it exemplify the tensions in the expanding LDS Church?

Holland: If you read Kate Kelly’s letter of excommunication from her bishop, it is rather clear that in the bishop’s mind she was not disciplined for holding the view that women should be ordained but for actively attempting to recruit others to this cause. The Church’s position has long been that it can tolerate different ideas held in private but not multiple voices of aggressive advocacy, especially on issues that strike so close to its doctrinal core. To the institutional Church, that is a matter of communal integrity. To the supporters of Kate Kelly, that is simply heavy-handed censorship, an obfuscating way of saying you can think what you want but keep your mouth shut.

This is why the digital age poses such a challenge to a church that has traditionally tried to maintain its theological boundaries by making this public/private distinction. As the culture of the Internet rapidly redraws the lines between the private and the public, Church policy will be challenged in new ways. Lay, volunteer leaders—such as the bishop who officially decided on Kelly’s excommunication—have reason to believe that policing such a line is a matter of existential concern to the Church, but identifying where that line lies becomes an increasingly complicated matter in today’s world. It’s a new wrinkle to an age-old dilemma.

HDS: What do you think the long-term ramifications could be for the LDS Church? Does the decision to excommunicate Kelly preserve the faith’s cohesiveness, or simply highlight the ways in which leadership is out of touch with the faithful?

The question of whether the "leadership is out of touch with the faithful" becomes a definitional matter. Who is the leadership here? Who are the faithful?

In Kelly’s case, the council that decided her fate was comprised of a handful of fellow members of her congregation—all male—who are neither formally trained as ministers nor on the payroll of the Church. They’re attempting to implement Church policy by their best lights.

There have been historical cases in which members of the central Church leadership have apparently pressured local lay leaders to discipline congregants in a particular way, but that is against official Church policy and I’ve seen no evidence that anything of the sort was at play here. So apparently what we have in this case are local, volunteer members of the Church policing the boundaries of their shared congregation—and yet their decision does not just remove Kelly from that particular congregation, but from the Church as a whole.

Certainly their decision is at odds with some of the concerns of some active, observant Latter-day Saints, but evidence suggests that their basic position on the question of ordination is actually quite reflective of the majority view in the Church. A Pew survey conducted last October found that 90 percent of LDS women oppose the ordination of women (compared to 84 percent of LDS men). Whether most Mormons would agree that excommunication was the appropriate response to this situation is another—at this point, unanswerable—question. My sense is that most Mormons of all persuasions—those whose sympathies lie with Kelly, those who sympathize with her bishop, and the significant number that I think feel for both— regret the fact that this chapter of the story has ended this way.

—by Paul Massari


[url]http://hds.harvard.edu/news/2014/06/25/exclusion-or-god’s-plan[/url]
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Ludd
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Re: Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain W

Post by _Ludd »

Interesting.

Say what you want about the various questions involved and how you feel personally about them, but I think any one would have to at least admit that this Holland is the most articulate one I have seen. And, to tell the truth, I think he actually frames the questions pretty eloquently (and fairly) for both sides of this debate.

Another thing: the Pew study showing that 90% of Mormon women aren't caught up in this whole "ordain women to the priesthood" fad is pretty telling, if you ask me. I think the OW crowd has a built in limitation to both it's size and it's influence. I think it's probably pretty certain that, outside of the bloggernacle, non one is paying attention to this controversy. And (as I think Aristotle Smith observed) now that Kelly has gone "bare shoulders", none of the TBM women are even listening to her anymore. An odd thing, for sure. But you know it's true.
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Re: Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain W

Post by _DrW »

beanboots wrote:David Holland is a professor at Harvard Divinity School.

Okay, I will admit it right here.

Whenever I hear reference to *Divinity School* (and especially Harvard Divinity School) I can't help but picture rotund men in white chef's hats bustling around perfecting the fine art of making my mom's favorite candy, and teaching their adoring students to do likewise.

When I was a post doc, Harvard was referred to as the small liberal arts college down the street. To be fair and balanced, rumor had it that the folks at Harvard referred to MIT as the local technical school. So there is that, I guess.

Really, though - a Divinity School in the west in the 21st Century?

One has to ask what would actually distinguish the curriculum of a Divinity School from that of any other course of study in mythology or comparative religion. And if the answer is that students there are being trained for the ministry, then one might well ask why an institution like Harvard would lend its good name to what, in the end, is really just a vocational school with curricula based on myths and unfounded belief.
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_DarkHelmet
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Re: Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain W

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Interesting. I found him surprisingly balanced, as he tried to present both sides of the issue. I was a little disappointed at the end when he put all the responsibility on Kelly's local leaders. He insists SLC had nothing to do with it, as if the local leaders make up their own rules willy nilly. As he says, excommunication not only kicks her out of her congregation, it kicks her out of the church. The guidelines for excommunications come from the highest levels, so you can't lay all the responsibility on the local leaders. I also found this line interesting:

Mormon priesthood isn’t just the right to lead a congregation or officiate over sacramental ceremonies. It's a deeply sacerdotal endowment that empowers its holders to speak, act, and heal in the name of God. It alters one’s relationship to the divine.

The fact that ordination to priesthood office is distributed to all observant LDS men—but only men—draws an especially stark gendered line.


I would modify the quoted part to say the priesthood is handed out to boys and men like candy on Halloween. That is part of the reason why the gender line is so pronounced. Maybe if the priesthood was something that was achieved through years of study, the gender issue wouldn't be as big a deal (although it would still be there). But then women would be taught that their goal is to raise a family, not go through priesthood college. The way it is right now, boys "earn" their priesthood simply by being boys. They are "promoted" from Deacon to Teacher simply by turning 14. Do you really believe the 12 year old boys running around church picking their noses and farting and laughing actually have any sort of Priesthood power? But if you make them earn it, there would be more reverence for it. It would still be sexist since women would not be allowed to take the courses, but at least it would be something that was earned rather than something that was handed out unfairly.
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Re: Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain W

Post by _Gadianton »

Holland Jr. certainly doesn't sound like the raving lunatic dad does, and dad's pals do, and the apologists do. This is the best observed TBM statement yet. Of course, he knows when to toe the party line,

"There have been historical cases in which members of the central Church leadership have apparently pressured local lay leaders to discipline congregants in a particular way, but that is against official Church policy and I’ve seen no evidence that anything of the sort was at play here."

That, my friends, was an untruth. But in his case I can forgive him for it.
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Re: Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain W

Post by _Kishkumen »

I didn't see anything there we didn't already know. The virtue of this piece is in the solid writing. Dean Robbers is correct in pointing out the obvious falsehood regarding GA involvement.
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_Tim the Enchanter
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Re: Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain W

Post by _Tim the Enchanter »

David Holland wrote:It is important to note that concerns about gender—whether heterosexual, homosexual, or non-binary—are radically intensified by LDS theology. As opposed to many Christian belief systems in which sexual identity often seems epiphenomenal to the larger divine plan, LDS doctrine suggests that the very purpose of human existence is wrapped up with procreation, family formation, and gendered complementarity.


Is he saying that non-binary gender is a part of LDS theology or is he saying something else? I didn't think LDS theology allowed for non-binary gender.

David Holland wrote:The idea is that just as men become fathers through a woman’s divinely endowed maternal capacity, so women become endowed with priesthood power through that same divine marriage. Through such a marriage, men and women can both be parents and they can both be priests—and thus through that relationship they both progress toward godliness—even as each retains certain complementary functional distinctions, such as the fact that men are responsible to hold priesthood office.


I don't think this argument holds. You could just as easily say that women become mothers through a man's divinely endowed paternal capacity. He says men and women can both be parents, but I think it is more accurate to say that men and women both are parents. It's not the maternal capacity of females that makes a man a father any more than it is the paternal capacity of males that makes a female a mother. Creating life is a symbiotic relationship between male and female and I don't think it is accurate to suggest that the father only becomes such because of the mother.

This inaccurate characterization of how males become parents helps him make his point that women can be priests through their husbands, but I think if he's going to borrow from biology to make a theological comparison he would be better to say "men and women both are parents and both are priests." But he can't say that.

David Holland wrote:Lay, volunteer leaders—such as the bishop who officially decided on Kelly’s excommunication—have reason to believe that policing such a line is a matter of existential concern to the Church


Key word: officially. *wink wink, nudge nudge*

David Holland wrote:Certainly their decision is at odds with some of the concerns of some active, observant Latter-day Saints, but evidence suggests that their basic position on the question of ordination is actually quite reflective of the majority view in the Church. A Pew survey conducted last October found that 90 percent of LDS women oppose the ordination of women (compared to 84 percent of LDS men).


A survey of members taken in 1950 would have had the exact same results on the question of whether to continue excluding Blacks from the Priesthood. A survey of members taken in 1880 would have had the exact same results on the question of whether to continue practicing polygamy. Why? These things were considered doctrine then, just as excluding women from the priesthood is considered doctrine now.
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Re: Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain W

Post by _Equality »

A Pew survey conducted last October found that 90 percent of LDS women oppose the ordination of women (compared to 84 percent of LDS men).

Perhaps because the supporters get kicked out (or remove themselves) from the sampled population. The ninety percent refers to active members. Many of the female Mormons who support female ordination have cast their votes not in a Pew research poll, but with their feet. The majority of Mormons do not go to church regularly. They are casting votes that don't show up in the Pew poll.
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Re: Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain W

Post by _ludwigm »

DrW wrote:Really, though - a Divinity School in the west in the 21st Century?

Living fossils.


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Or cellphone.
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Re: Elder Holland's Son Weighs in on Kate Kelly and Ordain W

Post by _The Mighty Builder »

DrW wrote:
beanboots wrote:David Holland is a professor at Harvard Divinity School.

Okay, I will admit it right here.

Whenever I hear reference to *Divinity School* (and especially Harvard Divinity School) I can't help but picture rotund men in white chef's hats bustling around perfecting the fine art of making my mom's favorite candy, and teaching their adoring students to do likewise.

When I was a post doc, Harvard was referred to as the small liberal arts college down the street. To be fair and balanced, rumor had it that the folks at Harvard referred to MIT as the local technical school. So there is that, I guess.

Really, though - a Divinity School in the west in the 21st Century?

One has to ask what would actually distinguish the curriculum of a Divinity School from that of any other course of study in mythology or comparative religion. And if the answer is that students there are being trained for the ministry, then one might well ask why an institution like Harvard would lend its good name to what, in the end, is really just a vocational school with curricula based on myths and unfounded belief.


Here, Here, Dr. W.

Accrediting bodies should not be allowed to extend any accreditation to institutions of higher learning that teaches both physical sciences and mythology (er, I mean religious studies).

They should require a separation of the two. If an institution is owned by a religious organization its scope of accreditation should be limited to religious studies.

This would prevent schools like BYU, Oral Roberts University, TCU, etc from violating their credo of a "house divided against itself cannot stand". . . .

You cannot teach sorcery and science at the same time.
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