LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

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_Craig Paxton
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LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Craig Paxton »

Will someone help me understand how many LDS apologists ignore their own scriptures and disavow LDS doctrine of a universal flood?

In Abraham…one of Noah’s granddaughters discovers Egypt…which is still under water

Abraham 1:24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

And in the Book of Mormon…the abridger Mormon tells of the waters receding from off the face of this (America) land.

Ether 13:2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;

How then can LDS apologists walk away from a LDS universal flood…where their own scriptures support it?

Latter-day Saints believe that the prophet Noah existed, and that he was commanded to build an ark and save his family from a flood. A belief that this flood was global in nature is not a requirement for Latter-day Saints; traditionally, many earlier members and leaders endorsed the global flood views common in society and Christendom generally. The accumulation of additional scientific information have led some to conclude that a local flood — one limited to the area in which Noah lived — is the best explanation of the available data. People of either view can be members in good standing.


http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... ocal_Flood
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_Sethbag
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Sethbag »

You aren't taking a "nuanced" enough approach to this.

Merriam Webster wrote:Full Definition of NUANCE

1: a subtle distinction or variation
2: a subtle quality : nicety
3: sensibility to, awareness of, or ability to express delicate shadings (as of meaning, feeling, or value)


In LDS apologetics, going from a global catastrophic flood which annihilated all human beings and animals on the planet Earth save those who were aboard a large gopherwood ark, to a local rainstorm that maybe kinda/sorta impacted a few people, somewhere, at some time, is an example of a "subtle distinction or variation."
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Fence Sitter
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I wonder what percentage of LDS members actually believe in a global flood that occurred about 4000 years ago?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_fetchface
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _fetchface »

I had a similar thought when I read the DNA and the Book of Mormon essay. They talk about the Americas being populated previous to the Nephites and Lamanites by people crossing the land bridge from Asia. I thought, "shouldn't that be irrelevant to the DNA of the Native Americans since all of those people who crossed the land bridge should have died out in the flood?"

For some time, the LDS church has needed to come to grips with the fact that there was no global flood in 2300 BC and no corresponding near extiction of humans anywhere near that time. Several scientific fields come to this same conclusion.

The problem is that in order to make this adjustment, literal belief in a lot of things just won't be possible anymore and if Mormonism were to make this adjustment it would be radically different from what it is now. I would love to see it happen but I'm not going to get my hopes up.
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_Craig Paxton
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Craig Paxton »

I wonder how long it will take for LDS apologist to add this to their creed:

Latter-day Saints believe that the Prophet Lehi existed, and that he was commanded to build a ship and save his family from the destruction of Jerusalem by sailing to America. A belief that this immigration was real in nature is not a requirement for Latter-day Saints; traditionally, many earlier members and leaders endorsed the hemispheric model for Book of Mormon geography which was common throughout the LDS Church generally. The accumulation of additional scientific information have led some to conclude that the Book of Mormon is a fiction — a story that did not exist in real time and space— this is the best explanation based on the available data. People of either view can be members in good standing.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_Sethbag
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Sethbag »

Fence Sitter wrote:I wonder what percentage of LDS members actually believe in a global flood that occurred about 4000 years ago?

I couldn't offer a percentage of active LDS adult members, but a certain subset, namely, full-time missionaries I've encountered as they stop by my house while I'm working outside, or while I'm riding my bike, are 100% over the last 9 years and probably 20 sets of missionaries. I make it a point to ask each set of missionaries a few questions, and these always include whether Adam and Eve were literally the first humans on Earth, and whether the flood of Noah literally killed everyone on Earth who wasn't on the Ark. Every single missionary I've ever asked these questions has given the textbook TBM answer that yes, they do believe these things.

I'm sure some of these boys and girls change their mind as they leave their missions and enter adult life, but so far, while they were still missionaries, every single one of them has proclaimed belief in the literally truth of those teachings.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Craig Paxton
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Craig Paxton »

Sethbag wrote:I couldn't offer a percentage of active LDS adult members, but a certain subset, namely, full-time missionaries I've encountered as they stop by my house while I'm working outside, or while I'm riding my bike, are 100% over the last 9 years and probably 20 sets of missionaries. I make it a point to ask each set of missionaries a few questions, and these always include whether Adam and Eve were literally the first humans on Earth, and whether the flood of Noah literally killed everyone on Earth who wasn't on the Ark. Every single missionary I've ever asked these questions has given the textbook TBM answer that yes, they do believe these things.

I'm sure some of these boys and girls change their mind as they leave their missions and enter adult life, but so far, while they were still missionaries, every single one of them has proclaimed belief in the literally truth of those teachings.



This has been my experience as well...
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_Tobin
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Tobin »

fetchface wrote:I had a similar thought when I read the DNA and the Book of Mormon essay. They talk about the Americas being populated previous to the Nephites and Lamanites by people crossing the land bridge from Asia. I thought, "shouldn't that be irrelevant to the DNA of the Native Americans since all of those people who crossed the land bridge should have died out in the flood?"

For some time, the LDS church has needed to come to grips with the fact that there was no global flood in 2300 BC and no corresponding near extiction of humans anywhere near that time. Several scientific fields come to this same conclusion.

The problem is that in order to make this adjustment, literal belief in a lot of things just won't be possible anymore and if Mormonism were to make this adjustment it would be radically different from what it is now. I would love to see it happen but I'm not going to get my hopes up.


It will happen. The fundamentalist Mormon view is going to die off . It really has little impact on the Mormonism in any event. All that is happening is backwards primitive views are slowly being destroyed over time. And why shouldn't they? The view isn't true, is a myth, and has no bearing on the real world.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Tator »

fetchface wrote:I had a similar thought when I read the DNA and the Book of Mormon essay. They talk about the Americas being populated previous to the Nephites and Lamanites by people crossing the land bridge from Asia. I thought, "shouldn't that be irrelevant to the DNA of the Native Americans since all of those people who crossed the land bridge should have died out in the flood?"

For some time, the LDS church has needed to come to grips with the fact that there was no global flood in 2300 BC and no corresponding near extiction of humans anywhere near that time. Several scientific fields come to this same conclusion.

The problem is that in order to make this adjustment, literal belief in a lot of things just won't be possible anymore and if Mormonism were to make this adjustment it would be radically different from what it is now. I would love to see it happen but I'm not going to get my hopes up.


My bold emphasis, good point, f-f, I have wondered the same. Welcome to the board.
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_Bazooka
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Bazooka »

The official Church position remains....

Not everyone throughout the modern world, however, accepts the story of Noah and the Flood. Many totally disbelieve the story, seeing it as a simple myth or fiction. Typical of some modern scholars, one author recently discounted the events of the Flood by using such terms as “implausible,” “unacceptable,” and “impossible”; he stated that believers who would hope to provide geologic or other evidence regarding the historicity of the Flood “can be given no assurance that their effort, however sustained, will be successful.” 1 Another author titled his book The Noah’s Ark Nonsense, 2 revealing his disbelief that the Flood actually took place.

Still other people accept parts of the Flood story, acknowledging that there may have been a local, charismatic preacher, such as Noah, and a localized flood that covered only a specific area of the world, such as the region of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers or perhaps even the whole of Mesopotamia. Yet these people do not believe in a worldwide or global flood. Both of these groups—those who totally deny the historicity of Noah and the Flood and those who accept parts of the story—are persuaded in their disbelief by the way they interpret modern science. They rely upon geological considerations and theories that postulate it would be impossible for a flood to cover earth’s highest mountains, that the geologic evidence (primarily in the fields of stratigraphy and sedimentation) does not indicate a worldwide flood occurred any time during the earth’s existence.

There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets.

Scriptural Evidence for a Worldwide Flood

Many prophets from two different continents and different eras have identified Noah as a historical, not a mythical, character. These include Enoch (see Moses 7:42–43), Abraham (see Abr. 1:19), Amulek (see Alma 10:22), Moroni (see Ether 6:7), Matthew (see Joseph Smith—M 1:41–42), Peter (see 2 Pet. 2:5), Joseph Smith (see D&C 84:14–15; D&C 133:54), and Joseph F. Smith (see D&C 138:9, 41). The Lord Jesus Christ himself spoke to the Nephites of the “waters of Noah” (3 Ne. 22:9). Recent latter-day prophets and apostles have similarly spoken of Noah. For example, Elder Howard W. Hunter, then of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, asked, “Because modernists now declare the story of the flood is unreasonable and impossible, should we disbelieve the account of Noah and the flood as related in the Old Testament?” 3

The most voluminous scriptural witness to Noah and the Flood is recorded in the writings of Moses, who dedicated a total of 57 verses in the King James Version to the account (Gen. 6:9–8:19). It is instructive to note that some of Noah’s actual words are preserved in the book of Moses, which introduces them with “And it came to pass that Noah continued his preaching unto the people, saying”—followed by his words: “Hearken, and give heed unto my words; Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you” (Moses 8:23–24). This text is significant in that it confirms that Noah, like his predecessors, understood the gospel covenant, including the baptismal ordinance and Jesus Christ’s role as Savior.

Moses may have received his information about Noah through direct revelation, or perhaps he used ancient records that were written by one of the eyewitnesses to the Flood, such as Noah himself or one of his sons. Such records, presuming they once existed, are now lost to the world. In the book of Genesis, Moses clearly states that a flood occurred, and the terminology definitely refers to a worldwide flood, as opposed to a localized flood. The Joseph Smith Translation backs up the Genesis account, modifying the wording only slightly.

Said the Lord, “I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die” (Gen. 6:17; emphasis added in this and other scriptures in this article). The phrases “all flesh ... from under heaven” and “every thing that is in the earth” indicate a worldwide destruction of all creatures that lived on land. Note that the Inspired Version, translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith, changes “in the earth” to “on the earth” (JST, Gen. 8:22).

Genesis 7:19–20 [Gen. 7:19–20] states, “All the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered ... ; and the mountains were covered.” These verses explicitly state that all of earth’s high mountains (“hills” should read “mountains” here; Hebrew harim) were covered by the waters. Lest one believe that the statement “under the whole heaven” is figurative and can be read or interpreted in different ways, a scriptural search through the entire Old Testament reveals that the phrase is used elsewhere only in a universal sense, as it is here; the phrase does not refer to a geographically restricted area (see Deut. 2:25; Deut. 4:19; Job 28:24; Job 37:3; Dan. 9:12). For instance, Job 28:24 also uses the phrase when referring to God’s omniscience, which is certainly not restricted to a specific geographical region on the earth.

Genesis 7:21 [Gen. 7:21] states, “All flesh died that moved upon the earth, ... every creeping thing ... every man.” The phrase “all flesh” refers to all land animals, creeping things, and fowls and all of humanity, with the exception of those in the ark (see Gen. 7:23). The entry every in the Oxford American Dictionary reads: “each single one, without exception.” Moses is clearly trying to let us understand that the Flood was universal.

Verse 22 [Gen. 7:22] states, “All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.” Again the term “all” expresses a sum total. The term “dry land” should be read literally here, having reference to the land masses of our planet.

Verse 23 [Gen. 7:23] states, “Every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl.” Moses’ list of those destroyed by the Flood is inclusive; only Noah “remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.”

Genesis 8:5 [Gen. 8:5] states, “In the tenth month ... were the tops of the mountains seen.” After the flood, the “waters decreased” until Noah and his group were able to once again see mountaintops.

Verse 9 states, “The waters were on the face of the whole earth.” The phrase “on the face of the whole earth” refers to a worldwide flood (see Gen. 1:29; Gen. 11:4, 8, 9).

Taken altogether, these statements should convince every believer in the Bible that the great Deluge was a worldwide event, 4 not a localized flood that filled only the Mesopotamian or some other region.


https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1998/01/the- ... l?lang=eng
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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