Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

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_grindael
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Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _grindael »

I'm currently working on an article about the claimed "Gift of Discernment", here defined by the Encyclopedia of Mormonism,

“The gift of discernment consists of the spiritual quality or skill of being able to see or understand, especially that which is hidden or obscure. This ability is shared in a general way by all of God’s children, but “discerning of spirits” is one of the gifts of the spirit that comes, under certain circumstances, specially from God (1 Cor. 12:10; D&C 46:23). The fuller gift of discerning in all spiritual matters—to know whether their occurrence is of God or not—is given by the Lord to “such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church” (D&C 46:27). To possess this gift is to receive divinely revealed understanding of opposing spirits—the spirit of God and the spirit of the devil. Persons possessing such a gift also correctly perceive the right course of action (D&C 63:41).

Not only can the power of discernment distinguish good from evil (Moro. 7:12-18), the righteous from the wicked (D&C 101:95), and false spirits from divine (D&C 46:23), but its more sensitive operation can also make known even “the thoughts and intents of the heart” of other persons (Heb. 4:12; D&C 33:1). “The gift of discernment [embodies] the power to discriminate…between right and wrong…[and] arises largely out of an acute sensitivity to…spiritual impressions…to detect hidden evil, and more importantly to find the good that may be concealed. The highest type of discernment…uncovers [in others]…their better natures, the good inherent within them” (Richards, p. 371).

Every Latter-day Saint has spiritual leaders who, by virtue of their callings, are entitled to the gift of discernment to enable them to lead and counsel correctly. “

“The gift of discernment is essential to the leadership of the Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]. I never ordain a bishop or set apart a president of a stake without invoking upon him this divine blessing, that he may read the lives and hearts of his people and call forth the best within them. The gift and power of discernment…[are] essential equipment for every son and daughter of God…. The true gift of discernment is often premonitory. A sense of danger should be heeded to be of value” (Richards, Stephen L. “The Gifts of the Spirit.” IE 53 [May 1950]:371).

Boyd K. Packer assures his audience in this General Conference address that,

"There is a power of discernment granted 'unto such as God shall appoint … to watch over [His] church.' To discern means 'to see.'” "President Harold B. Lee told me once of a conversation he had with Elder Charles A. Callis of the Quorum of the Twelve. Brother Callis had remarked that the gift of discernment was an awesome burden to carry. To see clearly what is ahead and yet find members slow to respond or resistant to counsel or even rejecting the witness of the apostles and prophets brings deep sorrow."

"Recently President Hinckley reminded the Brethren that, while we are men called from the ordinary pursuits of life, there rests upon us a sacred ministry. And we take comfort in what the Lord said to the original Twelve: 'Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you.'"

"Each week we meet together in the temple. We open the meeting by kneeling in prayer, and we close with prayer. Every prayer is offered in the spirit of submission and obedience to Him who called us and whose servants and witnesses we are."

"We know that we hold the power of the priesthood 'in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation.' We think of those who have preceded us in these sacred offices, and at times we feel their presence."


But what happens when one "apostle" fools the others by having illicit sexual affairs, or is a closet homosexual (this was a presiding patriarch), or practices polygamy in secret (well into the 20th century) or doesn't believe in Jesus atonement, etc? In the case of Albert Carrington, it was having sex with lots of women during his time as head of the British Mission. When the other "apostles" found out (after letting him go on for years when they initially caught him at it and he denied it) they were really, really ticked off. They booted him from the Quorum and the Church. There was no "gift of discernment" to help them out. But the fibbing...

When Carrington wanted to get back into the Church, he met with some resistance. These were men he had betrayed for years and they were having none of it. But as the years crept by, they softened up. Except Heber J. Grant. He wrote in his Diary about one discussion they had in August of 1887:

...President Wilford Woodruff stated that he could not agree with Brother Joseph F. that Albert Carrington had committed the unpardonable sin. Stated that he should not call a vote on the question, as our quorum was divided right in the middle. He felt that the Lord would not be pleased with a vote that was a divided one. Felt that we had better let this case drop. We all had a right to our views and our own feelings, and he was glad to have the brethren express their ideas freely and frankly, and he had no feelings because the brethren disagreed with him.

Before Brother Woodruff spoke, I [Heber J. Grant] stated that I would like to express my opinion on the subject, but he told me that it was unnecessary, as he had decided to drop it. After Brother Woodruff had made his remarks, I [Heber J. Grant] stated that there had been a feeling in my heart from the first application of Albert Carrington for rebaptism to grant it; and that each time that I had refused to do so, I had felt condemned; but that so far as my judgement was concerned, that all of the intelligence that I possessed was opposed to the rebaptism of Albert Carrington. I felt that he was unworthy of baptism, and I had fought against the inclination to admit him back into the Church, feeling that the disposition to be merciful had warped my better judgement. I would be thankful indeed in my heart if the word of God to our quorum would come through Prest W. Woodruff on the Albert Carrington case. It is painful to me to feel that I am lacking in mercy to a fallen brother and it is equally painful to vote to let a man return to the church that has been guilty of such fearful crimes as Albert Carrington. To vote directly against the best judgment a man has is a serious thing, and to turn away one crying for baptism is also a serious thing. I am very much undecided. (Grant Diary, August 12, 1887, See full quote here, http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewc ... monhistory).

Grant would later (30 years) get up in General Conference and attempt to teach a lesson about forgiveness using the example of Albert Carrington. He said,

Some years ago a prominent man was excommunicated from the Church. He, years later, pleaded for baptism. President John Taylor referred the question of his baptism to the apostles, stating that if they unanimously consented to his baptism, he could be baptized, but that if there was one dissenting vote, he should not be admitted into the Church. As I remember the vote, it was five for baptism and seven against. A year or so later the question came up again and it was eight for baptism and four against. Later it came up again and it was ten for baptism and two against. Finally all of the Council of the Apostles, with the exception of your humble servant, consented that this man be baptized and I was then next to the junior member of the quorum. Later I was in the office of the president and he said:

"Heber, I understand that eleven of the apostles have consented to the baptism of Brother So and So," naming the man, "and that you alone are standing out. How will you feel when you get on the other side and you find that this man has pleaded for baptism and you find that you have perhaps kept him out from entering in with those who have repented of their sins and received some reward?"

I said, "President John Taylor, I can look the Lord squarely in the eye, if he asks me that question, and tell him that I did that which I thought was for the best good of the kingdom. When a man holding the holy Priesthood of God goes forth to proclaim the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, to call the wicked to. repentance; goes to proclaim that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that the gospel has been restored again to the earth, and that man in the mission home of the Church of Christ commits adultery, I can tell the Lord that he had disgraced this Church enough, and that I did not propose to let any such a man come back into the Church."

"Well," said President Taylor, "my boy, that is all right, stay with your convictions, stay right with them."

I said, "President Taylor, your letter said you wanted each one of the apostles to vote the convictions of his heart. If you desire me to surrender the convictions of my heart, I will gladly do it; I will gladly vote for this man to come back, but while I live I never expect to consent, if it is left to my judgment. That man was accused before the apostles several years ago and he stood up and lied and claimed that he was innocent, and the Lord gave to me a testimony that he lied, but I could not condemn him because of that. I got down on my knees that night and prayed God to give me the strength not to expose that man, seeing that he had lied but that we had no evidence, except only the testimony of the girl that he had seduced. And I prayed the Lord that some day additional testimony might come, and it did come, and we then excommunicated him. And when a man can lie to the apostles, and when he can be guilty while proclaiming repentance of sin, I think this Church has been disgraced enough without ever letting him come back into the Church."

"Well," repeated President Taylor, "my boy, don't you vote as long as you live, while you hold those ideas, stay right with them."

I left the president's office. I went home. My lunch was not ready. I was reading the D&C through for the third or fourth time systematically, and I had my bookmark in it, but as I picked it up, instead of opening where the bookmark was, it opened to:

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men; but he that forgiveth not his brother standeth condemned before the Lord.

And I closed the book and said: "If the devil applies for baptism, and claims that he has repented, I will baptize him." After lunch I returned to the office of President Taylor and I said, "President Taylor, I have had a change of heart. One hour ago I said, never while I live, did I expect to ever consent that Brother So and So should be baptized, but I have come to tell you he can be baptized, so far as I am concerned."

President Taylor had a habit, when he was particularly pleased, of sitting up and laughing and shaking his whole body, and he laughed and said, "My boy, the change is very sudden, very sudden. I want to ask you a question. How did you feel when you left here an hour ago? Did you feel like you wanted to hit that man right squarely between the eyes and knock him down?"

I said, "That is just the way I felt." He said, "How do you feel now?"

"Well, to tell you the truth, President Taylor, I hope the Lord will forgive the sinner."

He said, "You feel happy, don't you, in comparison. You had the spirit of anger, you had the spirit of bitterness in your heart toward that man, because of his sin and because of the disgrace he had brought upon the Church. And now you have the spirit of forgiveness and you really feel happy, don't you?"

And I said, "Yes I do; I felt mean and hateful and now I feel happy."

And he said: "Do you know why I wrote that letter?" I said: "No, sir."

"Well I wrote it, just so you and some of the younger members of the apostles would learn the lesson that forgiveness is in advance of justice, where there is repentance, and that to have in your heart the spirit of forgiveness and to eliminate from your hearts the spirit of hatred and bitterness, brings peace and joy; that the gospel of Jesus Christ brings joy, peace and happiness to every soul that lives it and follows its teachings." (Conference Report, October 1920, p. 5-7)

The problem with this account, is that Grant is still undecided on August 12, 1887, and John Taylor had died a month before this. (July 25, 1887) It wasn't until October 31, 1887 that Grant and the rest of the 12 agreed to rebaptizing Carrington (Grant being the last holdout). So Grant was making up the story about his visit to John Taylor, since he claims in his diary that he was still undecided about Carrington a month afterTaylor died!

What is also interesting is that the D&C verse that Grant claimed he opened up to arbitrarily, was quoted in a letter written to the Quorum of the 12 by Carrington's daughter Jane in September, 1887 in which she pleaded with them to "read section sixty-four, tenth verse in the Doctrine and Covenants and consider his [Albert's] condition." The verse says,

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

And verse 9 reads,

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

What is it with these fibbing "prophets"???
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Re: Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _Servant »

My opinion is that you have to give forgiveness if the sinner asks forgiveness. I don't really see otherwise in the Scriptures. It's always bothered me when the family of murder victims say, "oh, we forgive him (or her)" when the murderer hasn't even asked for forgiveness.
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Re: Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _Runtu »

Servant wrote:My opinion is that you have to give forgiveness if the sinner asks forgiveness. I don't really see otherwise in the Scriptures. It's always bothered me when the family of murder victims say, "oh, we forgive him (or her)" when the murderer hasn't even asked for forgiveness.


The man who killed my two brothers (driving under the influence of drugs) has never asked forgiveness of me or anyone in my family, for that matter--at least not that I know of. So, if you're correct, I shouldn't have to forgive him because he never asked. But I forgave him because not forgiving was a heavy burden I would have continued to carry.

Back to the OP, this sounds like some creative story-telling, a la Paul Dunn.
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Re: Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _LDSToronto »

Forgiveness is a personal choice. Personally, I can live with a moderate degree of unforgiving in my heart, doesn't bother me one whit. I'll extend forgiveness to whomever I desire, and withhold it from whomever I desire.

I've determined I'm OK, with religious people living like normal human beings. Nobody can forgive everyone for everything.

H.
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Re: Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _Runtu »

LDSToronto wrote:Forgiveness is a personal choice. Personally, I can live with a moderate degree of unforgiving in my heart, doesn't bother me one whit. I'll extend forgiveness to whomever I desire, and withhold it from whomever I desire.

I've determined I'm OK, with religious people living like normal human beings. Nobody can forgive everyone for everything.

H.


Agreed. I'll forgive whom I feel like forgiving. I'm just saying that I disagree that someone has to ask forgiveness before I do forgive them.
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_grindael
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Re: Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _grindael »

This goes beyond creative story telling, in my opinion. He told lies to basically aggrandize himself. For instance, if I go to war overseas and am in battle, and during the battle cower in my foxhole, but then come home and tell everyone (for purposes of "helping" the youth or whatever) I was really a hero who rescued wounded comrades and killed many of the enemy for the good and love of country, am I a liar? I was there, wasn't I? If I wasn't a coward I would have killed the enemy and helped my fellow soldiers, for sure. It just didn't happen that way, but that's ok, I just got creative! A lie is a lie even if it is supposedly done for the "greater good" in someone's mind. Grant states that the events are "clear" in his mind even thirty years later. But the facts recorded by him at the time don't match up with his later story.
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Re: Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _Tator »

LDSToronto wrote:Forgiveness is a personal choice. Personally, I can live with a moderate degree of unforgiving in my heart, doesn't bother me one whit. I'll extend forgiveness to whomever I desire, and withhold it from whomever I desire.

I've determined I'm OK, with religious people living like normal human beings. Nobody can forgive everyone for everything.

H.


I think you have the gift of discernment.
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Re: Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _Servant »

Runtu wrote:
LDSToronto wrote:Forgiveness is a personal choice. Personally, I can live with a moderate degree of unforgiving in my heart, doesn't bother me one whit. I'll extend forgiveness to whomever I desire, and withhold it from whomever I desire.

I've determined I'm OK, with religious people living like normal human beings. Nobody can forgive everyone for everything.

H.


Agreed. I'll forgive whom I feel like forgiving. I'm just saying that I disagree that someone has to ask forgiveness before I do forgive them.

For a person to be truly forgiven, there must be repentance. This is what we find in Scripture:

"The Bible teaches us that God withholds forgiveness toward unsaved people who are unrepentant (2 Kings 24:4 and Lamentations 3:42). God does this because of His very nature: He is sinless. He is perfect. He is holy. He simply will not tolerate sin. Paul warns the willfully rebellious in Romans 2:5, “Because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.”

As Christians, we are certainly obligated to forgive others who sin against us and then repent (Matthew 6:14–15; 18:23–35; Mark 11:25; Luke 17:3–4; Ephesians 4:31–32; Colossians 3:13). This holds true even if someone sins against us repeatedly (Matthew 18:21–22). " (got questions)

Now, what if a person doesn't ask for forgiveness. I think if we withhold forgiveness in our hearts it can become a bitter root. It can cause us to hate. Thus, forgiving those who have sinned against us (or in this case, sinned against your brothers) is probably a good thing for you to do. However, unless that person truly repents of their sin, they will have no forgiveness from God. Our forgiveness, in other words, doesn't get the sinner off the hook with God. However, if we forgive them it is something we really are doing for us - to bring peace to ourselves. Or "closure" as they say.
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Re: Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

I forgive you, Servant. Go and sin no more.
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Re: Another "Prophet" caught fibbing...

Post by _Markk »

Runtu wrote:
The man who killed my two brothers (driving under the influence of drugs) has never asked forgiveness of me or anyone in my family, for that matter--at least not that I know of. So, if you're correct, I shouldn't have to forgive him because he never asked. But I forgave him because not forgiving was a heavy burden I would have continued to carry.



I have never forgiven anyone for such a terrible crime or action against me, and I won't pretend I am as strong as you, I admire you for that.

But I know forgiveness is for us...holding in hate is a cancer and tears us apart from the inside out, I believe that.

Charles Stanley writes a lot on forgiveness, he was beaten by his stepfather (father?) and went through a lot anger before he learned to forgive. If you have time check out this and let me know what you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3wptoGIchw
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