Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

From Reddit's Best Of:

[history]/u/RosyFacedLovebird on Why Jesus was an unlikely fit for the Messiah, which interestingly validates his historicity.

Here is the thought-provoking post:

To the more or less the same extent that most people in history have been confirmed to have existed, yes.

Contemporary records in the ancient world are rare. Beyond Roman emperors and governors, they are vanishingly rare; for example, there are zero surviving contemporary references to Hannibal, despite the profound importance of the Punic Wars on the evolution of Rome. Jesus was a Galilean peasant preacher; it is utterly expected that there would be no surviving references to him until decades after his death.

There are many references to Jesus written soon after his death; many of these were later collected into the New Testament of the Bible. Mark was the earliest gospel to have been written, and it is believed to have been written about CE 66-70. It draws heavily from the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, the earliest parts of which were written between 40 and 60 CE--within recent memory of Jesus' death, which is likely to have occurred approximately 33 CE. The Epistle of James was possibly written 50-60 CE, and most of the Pauline epistles were almost certainly written 50-60 CE. To speak roughly, the Crucifixion was about distant in time from the earliest surviving Christian writing as 9/11 is from the current date, and about as distant from the first Gospels as the death of Princess Diana is from the current date. While we obviously cannot unquestioningly accept the entirety of the Epistles and Gospels as fact (nor can any primary source ever be unquestioningly accepted), few mainstream historians seriously consider that the entire thing is likely to have been made up out of whole cloth.

First, it doesn't really fit contemporary expectations of the Messiah. The Messiah was supposed to be of the house of David, from Bethlehem, who would lead the Jews to eternal glory and establish Israel as the greatest power on Earth, vanquishing all enemies of God beneath the sword. Jesus was a homeless man of unknown lineage, son of a rural laborer, from Nazareth, and as soon as he arrived in Jerusalem he was executed in the style of slaves, thieves, and brigands. If Jesus were made up, why make him from Nazareth? Why make his story so counter to the audience's expeectations--why not make him a heroic military rebel? And why have him be crucified, a shameful and degrading punishment that was absolutely unthinkable for a holy man to endure, and preposterous for a god to endure? It would have been (and, according to the later gospels, actually was) a completely unbelievable story to contemporary Jews. For a comparison, perhaps, a modern analogue might be if I were to claim that Jesus indeed returned, but actually he was a dude named Mike from Detroit this time (but, uh, he was born in Bethlehem because his parents were on vacation there), and Mike got shot by the cops while robbing a liquor store instead of creating the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. If I were to try to start a religion, and make up my Messiah out of whole cloth, I would probably not make the Messiah a small-time crook from Detroit. Similarly, if given a choice, the early Christians would probably not have made the Messiah a crucified itinerant from Nazareth.

Second, the earliest gospels and epistles were written at a time when Jesus was within living memory. If making up a memorable, charismatic figure, why say that he lived where your primary audience lived, and why say that he lived and died within living memory? If making up the man, it is unlikely they would have pointlessly run the risk of the audience saying, "Hey, wait, I remember dozens of preachers and holy men, and I don't ever remember anything about Jesus."

Third, there are near-contemporary references to Jesus outside the Christian community, in Josephus and Tacitus. This actually makes Jesus somewhat better attested than we might expect, considering how slight the evidence is for most historical figures of the time.

Ultimately, the historical Jesus is boring. He was a small-town preacher who wandered around, got a few followers, and then went to the big city and got himself in trouble with the cops, and then got himself killed. From scattered contemporary records, we know of at least a dozen similar historical stories. While he must have been exceptionally charismatic, in broad strokes his life story was so utterly unremarkable that it wouldn't even be worth falsifying.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_cinepro
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Re: Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _cinepro »

Those are good points.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _Fence Sitter »

So how does arguing that there was a historical figure named Jesus, who didn't satisfy any of the requirements of being the Messiah, help the cause of those that believe he was?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Fence Sitter wrote:So how does arguing that there was a historical figure named Jesus, who didn't satisfy any of the requirements of being the Messiah, help the cause of those that believe he was?


I'm not sure, but I'm not going to lie that was an ulterior motive of mine to post. ;)

That said, I've always been in the camp that a historical Jesus was just an amalgamation of various 'urban legends', and that the historical record really didn't bear out.

This poster might've changed my mind on the issue that there was, indeed, a few preachers in the area that met the timeline requirements and ended up getting themselves killed by the Romans.

V/R
Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_nevazhno
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Re: Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _nevazhno »

I think he/she overstates the case of how unexpected of a Messiah Jesus was.

Jesus was linked to the Suffering Servant in Second Isaiah soon after his death. And, while Isaiah never explicitly identifies the Suffering Servant as the Messiah, as Bart Ehrman likes to point out, the rapidity with which early Christianity appears to have spread is at least circumstantial evidence that some Jews either considered the Suffering Servant a messianic figure, or did not see it as a big leap to make. While I'm not a Bible scholar, I get the sense that we know little about what most Jews of the first century did or did not believe. The Pharisees were a small group, the Sadducees were primarily temple elites, and the Essenes purposefully separated themselves from the rest. That leaves a lot of Jews whose beliefs we know little about.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

nevazhno wrote:I think he/she overstates the case of how unexpected of a Messiah Jesus was.

Jesus was linked to the Suffering Servant in Second Isaiah soon after his death. And, while Isaiah never explicitly identifies the Suffering Servant as the Messiah, as Bart Ehrman likes to point out, the rapidity with which early Christianity appears to have spread is at least circumstantial evidence that some Jews either considered the Suffering Servant a messianic figure, or did not see it as a big leap to make. While I'm not a Bible scholar, I get the sense that we know little about what most Jews of the first century did or did not believe. The Pharisees were a small group, the Sadducees were primarily temple elites, and the Essenes purposefully separated themselves from the rest. That leaves a lot of Jews whose beliefs we know little about.


Those are really great observations. I'm sure the Jews from that era are very similar to the Jews of this one... Most are secular or liberal to one degree or another. Perhaps, culturally, it wouldn't have been that difficult to pick up a 'ministry' if you were charismatic and ballsy enough to know how to talk to the people.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Enzo the Baker
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Re: Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _Enzo the Baker »

This is the best, informative, scholarly, work on the question of whether Jesus was a real historical person or not...spoiler alert: not bloody likely.

http://www.amazon.com/Historicity-Jesus ... +for+doubt
_nevazhno
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Re: Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _nevazhno »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
nevazhno wrote:I think he/she overstates the case of how unexpected of a Messiah Jesus was.

Jesus was linked to the Suffering Servant in Second Isaiah soon after his death. And, while Isaiah never explicitly identifies the Suffering Servant as the Messiah, as Bart Ehrman likes to point out, the rapidity with which early Christianity appears to have spread is at least circumstantial evidence that some Jews either considered the Suffering Servant a messianic figure, or did not see it as a big leap to make. While I'm not a Bible scholar, I get the sense that we know little about what most Jews of the first century did or did not believe. The Pharisees were a small group, the Sadducees were primarily temple elites, and the Essenes purposefully separated themselves from the rest. That leaves a lot of Jews whose beliefs we know little about.


Those are really great observations. I'm sure the Jews from that era are very similar to the Jews of this one... Most are secular or liberal to one degree or another. Perhaps, culturally, it wouldn't have been that difficult to pick up a 'ministry' if you were charismatic and ballsy enough to know how to talk to the people.

- Doc

Yeah, the Jews of that time were a powder keg just waiting for a spark -- hence the revolt that led to the destruction of the Temple, and the Bar Kochba result in the 130s. I don't think getting a following was the hard part.
_SteelHead
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Re: Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _SteelHead »

Is this setting the stage for discussion about how the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's implausibility are being used by believers as evidence of its veracity?

I really don't see how those or this argument actually support the conclusions.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_huckelberry
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Re: Interesting post about the historicity of Jesus

Post by _huckelberry »

Fence Sitter wrote:So how does arguing that there was a historical figure named Jesus, who didn't satisfy any of the requirements of being the Messiah, help the cause of those that believe he was?


I am not sure it does, so why do you think a bunch of followers ended up believing he was? Talked into it by Pilot? an accident?

It would seem unlikely that any argument made now would effect the belief of the first thousand years of the church.
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