Kerry/Philo

[_Philo Sofee]

Harmony

"If you stare in to the Abyss the Abyss stares back"

Not if it's a seer stone.......

A rock by any other name is still just a rock.

Rock me gently,
Rock me slowly,
Take it easy, don't you know,
That I am the seer stone,
Owned by good ole Joe!

[_harmony]

Harmony

"If you stare in to the Abyss the Abyss stares back"

Not if it's a seer stone.......

A rock by any other name is still just a rock.

Rock me gently,
Rock me slowly,
Take it easy, don't you know,
That I am the seer stone,
Owned by good ole Joe!

And just as useful as any rock thrown through the mean neighbor's window.

Good to see you, Kerry.

[_moksha]

No, I missed the Skinny - L list by a few months. It was by invite only, and only the very special "second anointed" of the apologists could EVER get on it. It was a VERY CLOSED list. I knew several who were on it, and every now and then they deigned it feasible to descend from their celestial mansion into the telestial kingdom of apologetics, the FAIR email list I was on, and visit us and pat us o the heads and give us teasers about the next FARMS projects or some such. They are good people on both lists, don't kid yerselves. But, I just can't do group think man. I am cursed of God for group think, and thus swim around in telestial/hell waters foundering for myself.......

I get it, they made you take a blood oath and perform the sign of the frog just so you would croak if you revealed details from the list.

Bet Dr. Scratch was at the head of the L-Skinny hit list.

[_Servant]

I actually was so full of zeal without the knowledge (even AFTER reading Nibley's article on it several times in order to show others *their* problem) that I was more interested in convicting the critic, and showing all the others that there was nothing to fear from criticism and supposed refutations. I wasn't out to convert with the Spirit (precious few apologists are, it's not the nature of apologetics, Mormon, Christian, or otherwise), I was out to refute and show that the Mormon intelligence was superior to any other relgious intelligence because we had more scripture, more prophets, more light, and more truth. Our context was greater, deeper, wider, and thus much more full, and hence by default, more correct. All other contexts were minimal compared to Mormonism's "eternal" view, and therefore what was needed was education.

For you see, I already had the greater context, so it was that I wanted to help others to see. It was exasperating after years to see what I perceived as them fighting against greater truth and light and knowledge that God was offering. They were being bull-headed, I was being the light shining showing them the errors of their ways. ldsfaqs is what I used to be to a perfect "T" I do not mean that as a slight against him, although, it is actually. Because I had the greater light, the more correct truth, I could *show* others the errors of their ways, I didn't have any. I mean sincerely, there is no better exemplar than ldsfaqs here on these boards. It is pure pride of already having the truth. It occurred to me a few years back what an arrogant ass I was, and I couldn't see it when I was "defending God." That is so flipping odd I can't comprehend ever thinking that way, but apologists do so. Imagine......God can't do it, not even with the Holy Ghost. He needs apologists who somehow know how to do it better. Once you "know" you have the truth, you automatically become a self-righteous judge, and man do they ever lord it over on all others. I sure did. I'm embarrassed about it now. Wow. So, anyway, whether they ever admit it or not, I personally don't care, that is the apologist mind set. It was mine then. You don't look for light and truth, you already possess it.

That is the apologetic mindset. I know, I had it, and everyone else did as well. Once on a FAIR email list I belonged to, I began asking some pretty darn tough questions because I just didn't see things as the others did. I asked some very tough questions about the prophets and some of their interpretations of the scriptures. I was told in no uncertain terms "we are here to DEFEND the church, NOT question it, or doubt the leaders. Apolgosits DEFEND. We are not here attempting to learn more than the leaders, we sustain them, agree with them, and write that agreement to the world. We do not contradict them, and if we do, we don't say so. What they say is our words. PERIOD." I was just honestly trying to figure things out and I was called directly onto the carpet and flattened. If I could not just agree with the truth the leaders taught, I was not welcomed on the email list. Another very good and well known apologist (semi-scholar) and popular radio talk show host was actually ousted off the list because he could not agree with the lock step thinking concerning the Book of Mormon. I was astounded and many others were also. In fact, I believe that was the beginning of the end for Kevin Graham on that list as well as he spoke up vehemently also. So, anyway, there you have it. The Spirit gives the apologist extra mental muscle to handle the world's doubts.

An apologist *always* will win because we have superior knowledge. That was the mind set. Kevin Barney (a VERY cool guy whom I deeply respect STILL, Ben McGuire is pretty cool too) so completely humbled us all so many times with his vast knowledge of ancient Hebrew convinced me I was not nearly as knowledgable as I could be, so I doubled down and tripled down on learning everything I could. It was my extending into the biblical scholarship that spelled the doom of my ultimate involvement with apologetics. Anyway, sorry to bore you with all the details. Let me just say one last thing if I may please. We (apologists) already had the answers. It was just a matter of amassing ALL the evidence from anywhere in the world that supported the answers, and putting it into our research and that was the proof we were correct. I finally figured out that this is the perfect recipe for one very powerful.... overwhelmingly powerful thing....Confirmation Bias.

It never leads to truth, it leads to confirmation bias. I can honest to goodness do no better than point to the singular most powerful proof that God has given us all in presenting ldsfaqs to the group. He is the epitome of all that is wrong with apologetics. Were he Catholic, I would say that's the decfect of it. He is Mormon, and his confirmation bias is openly easy to witness and observe. It is true of all religious apologetics of every stripe as I have learned and observed with all the other religions as well. And it is all backed up and supported by faith. Faith is literally the flawed methodology that turns Christianity into Christianities, tens of thousands of them all using the same method, and all ending up contradicting each other at every turn, on every subject. And they CAN'T SEE IT. So go easy on em.........

It seems to me that Mormonism has left you sort of agnostic, if not atheistic. Am I right? I suppose defending for most of your life a system which was totally the construct of Joseph Smith - polytheism, polygamy, men becoming gods, and so on - will catch up with a person in the end. When a Mormon can say that the authenticity of the Book of Mormon isn't something he thinks about - I can understand. It is an obvious fraud. To come to terms with that must be heart-wrenching. The sad thing is that those on the forum who have left Mormonism, or are thinking of doing so, don't seem to care a wit about Jesus! Nothing about Him at all. In fact, what one sees here is almost a hatred of Jesus, a mocking of Him. The lies of Smith have reaped their harvest, even from his grave.

[_Tobin]

It seems to me that Mormonism has left you sort of agnostic, if not atheistic. Am I right? I suppose defending for most of your life a system which was totally the construct of Joseph Smith - polytheism, polygamy, men becoming gods, and so on - will catch up with a person in the end. When a Mormon can say that the authenticity of the Book of Mormon isn't something he thinks about - I can understand. It is an obvious fraud. To come to terms with that must be heart-wrenching. The sad thing is that those on the forum who have left Mormonism, or are thinking of doing so, don't seem to care a wit about Jesus! Nothing about Him at all. In fact, what one sees here is almost a hatred of Jesus, a mocking of Him. The lies of Smith have reaped their harvest, even from his grave.

So Servant, why should we believe in the magical mythical Jesus that you believe in? I hope you can understand that former LDS members that are skeptical of Mormon claims are equally skeptical of your claims. I really don't see what, if anything, you have of merit to offer here.

[_Servant]

It seems to me that Mormonism has left you sort of agnostic, if not atheistic. Am I right? I suppose defending for most of your life a system which was totally the construct of Joseph Smith - polytheism, polygamy, men becoming gods, and so on - will catch up with a person in the end. When a Mormon can say that the authenticity of the Book of Mormon isn't something he thinks about - I can understand. It is an obvious fraud. To come to terms with that must be heart-wrenching. The sad thing is that those on the forum who have left Mormonism, or are thinking of doing so, don't seem to care a wit about Jesus! Nothing about Him at all. In fact, what one sees here is almost a hatred of Jesus, a mocking of Him. The lies of Smith have reaped their harvest, even from his grave.

So Servant, why should we believe in the magical mythical Jesus that you believe in? I hope you can understand that former LDS members that are skeptical of Mormon claims are equally skeptical of your claims. I really don't see what, if anything, you have of merit to offer here.

Because He died and rose again.

[_Tobin]

Because He died and rose again.

Prove it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Because He died and rose again.

Prove it.

What type of proof would you expect to find about anything that happened during that time period in history?

Just give me some ideas of what you're looking for.

[_Tobin]

Prove it.

What type of proof would you expect to find about anything that happened during that time period in history?

Just give me some ideas of what you're looking for.

Oh, that's very simple to do. If Jesus is supposedly still alive as Servant claims, I'd like to sit down for a face-to-face chat with the fellow. He could explain why I'm wrong and should believe Servant. That should be more than sufficient.

[_Jersey Girl]

What type of proof would you expect to find about anything that happened during that time period in history?

Just give me some ideas of what you're looking for.

Oh, that's very simple to do. If Jesus is supposedly still alive as Servant claims, I'd like to sit down for a face-to-face chat with the fellow. He could explain why I'm wrong and should believe Servant. That should be more than sufficient.

Are you familiar with the story of Jesus as reported in the New Testament?