Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

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_I have a question
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Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _I have a question »

https://www.Facebook.com/johndehlinpublic/

A post by Dehlin quotes a Stake President telling his Bishops that the Seventy have told him that the FP and Q12 are working on clarifying the new policy and requesting they help members not to be too hasty.

It has been reported to me that the following statement was sent out by a stake president to his stake leadership:
"Brethren, the following short statement was sent out by the Presidency of the 70 today related to the recent changes to the Handbook of Instructions:
"There will be additional clarification on these changes from the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve in the coming days. We are invited to help people with questions not jump to unwarranted conclusions or interpretations and remain calm while we wait for clarification.”


It's a bit ironic asking the members to take a more patient and thoughtful approach to making decisions.
Have they absolutely no self awareness?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_RockSlider
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Re: Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _RockSlider »

So the faithful took that truth to be hard eh?

Can't wait to see Jesus's explanation of this one.
_I have a question
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Re: Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _I have a question »

I'd like to see how they are going to wriggle out of clarify this:

"Effective immediately, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a new policy related to the children of gay couples, married or unmarried:
"Children of a Parent Living in a Same-Gender Relationship
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing.
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows:
A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:
1. The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.
2. The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage."


It is clear, it is explicit, it is unequivocal. And it is public.

I see this as an attempt at buying time. It's an attempt at halting members pulling the plug on their membership by suggesting that some additional thinking about it is being done which may result in some amendment or softening of the policy. I don't think that will happen. I think the Q12 and FP are hoping to stall members in their actions in the hopes that, after a little time has past, members will calm down sufficiently to remain members even if disgruntled. Good luck with that.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Sammy Jankins
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Re: Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _Sammy Jankins »

I would like comfirmation on this.

That said there is nothing they can do at point to completely save face. They can't call it clarification because we have Christofferson on video defending it. And as IHAQ pointed out, the language is clear and explicit. And if this was all simply a misunderstanding they've had six days to clarify. If this was simply a misunderstanding they wouldn't need to announce that the clarification was days away.

It's too late to call it a mistake because Christofferson already defended it as an apostle. Tons of members already defended it.

We will see I guess.
_I have a question
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Re: Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _I have a question »

Sammy Jankins wrote:I would like comfirmation on this.

That said, there is nothing they can do at point to completely save face. They can't call it clarification because we have Christofferson on video defending it. And as IHAQ pointed out, the language is clear and explicit. And if this was all simply a misunderstanding they've had six days to clarify. If this was simply a misunderstanding, they wouldn't need to announce that the clarification was days away.

It's too late to call it a mistake because Christofferson already defended it as an apostle. Tons of members already defended it.

We will see I guess.


Christofferson already provided the clarification.
SALT LAKE CITY —
In a video interview Friday in Salt Lake City, Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reaffirmed the Church’s position on marriage and outlined handbook changes in Church policy affecting same-sex couples and their children. The interview will help Church members, the media and the public better understand the context and purpose of the changes, which have been discussed extensively in the news media, on social media and elsewhere.

The changes were made this week in the Church’s Handbook 1 (a policy and instruction guide for local Church leaders) and were approved by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The revisions were outlined in a letter that was sent to local Church leaders throughout the world (see the video and read the transcript of the interview below).

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/h ... stofferson

Christofferson was similarly explicit and unequivocal in his prepared language:
It’s a statement to remove any question or doubt that may exist. We recognize that same-sex marriages are now legal in the United States and some other countries and that people have the right, if they choose, to enter into those, and we understand that. But that is not a right that exists in the Church. That’s the clarification.


As for the children part:
Michael Otterson: Why are the children of these same-sex partners an issue here?

Elder Christofferson: Well, in answering or responding to your question, let me say I speak not only as an apostle in the Church, but as a husband, as a father and as a grandfather. And like others in those more enduring callings, I have a sense of compassion and sympathy and tender feelings that they do. So this policy originates out of that compassion. It originates from a desire to protect children in their innocence and in their minority years. When, for example, there is the formal blessing and naming of a child in the Church, which happens when a child has parents who are members of the Church, it triggers a lot of things. First, a membership record for them. It triggers the assignment of visiting and home teachers. It triggers an expectation that they will be in Primary and the other Church organizations. And that is likely not going to be an appropriate thing in the home setting, in the family setting where they're living as children where their parents are a same-sex couple. We don't want there to be the conflicts that that would engender. We don't want the child to have to deal with issues that might arise where the parents feel one way and the expectations of the Church are very different. And so with the other ordinances on through baptism and so on, there's time for that if, when a child reaches majority, he or she feels like that's what they want and they can make an informed and conscious decision about that. Nothing is lost to them in the end if that's the direction they want to go. In the meantime, they're not placed in a position where there will be difficulties, challenges, conflicts that can injure their development in very tender years.

Do they really need to clarify that clarification? I think Christofferson did his bit, clarified and removed doubt about the new policy. It's not being unclear about the policy that is the problem. The problem is that the policy is abundantly clear and people don't agree with it. At all. And they are expressing themselves by voting with their feet.


I imagine that the Q12 and FP still think the biggest issue with all of this is that it became public to everyone all at once immediately upon its implementation. They had strategised its release as covertly through the leaderships secret operating manual so that only people directly affected would ever get to see it. They could deal with such cases on an individual basis and it's existence would gradually dribble out over a long period of time, there'd be no mass PR disaster or member backlash. It is abundantly clear that no press statements or member communication plan had been prepared, and that they are now trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. As I said, good luck with that. They were caught red handed doing something they didn't want the members to know they were doing (what else have they done without member knowledge?). They should own it.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_RockSlider
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Re: Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _RockSlider »

likely just clarification on how soon/aggressive to enforce ... not intended for pubic consumption

thank goodness we have John Dehlin to keep us informed
_annie
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Re: Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _annie »

I reckon they can wriggle out of it in a way that will satisfy many of the faithful.


The policy was only evoked for a tentative, trial period, but we were forced to clarify publicly before we had finished giving the matter its due consideration. Now we've had time to seek further inspiration we'd like to make the following clarifications...

Additionally, Dehlin is a super-dooper evil apostate for leaking the policy and causing so many souls to doubt the brethren and leave precipitously. Blessed are the ones who stayed and demonstrated faith in the brethren; they have passed this Abrahamic test.



My believing family members would be satisfied with this. It's what they're expecting to happen.
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Re: Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _RockSlider »

somewhere over the last couple days I gave em the solution .... maybe they saw it! :cool:

Jesus appeared to the Q12 in the temple, going up the steps right there between the world and celestial room and told us that the prophet was leading the people astray and needed to be impeached and the policy withdrawn.
_DrW
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Re: Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _DrW »

I have a question wrote:I imagine that the Q12 and FP still think the biggest issue with all of this is that it became public to everyone all at once immediately upon its implementation. They had strategised its release as covertly through the leaderships secret operating manual so that only people directly affected would ever get to see it. They could deal with such cases on an individual basis and it's existence would gradually dribble out over a long period of time, there'd be no mass PR disaster or member backlash. It is abundantly clear that no press statements or member communication plan had been prepared, and that they are now trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. As I said, good luck with that. They were caught red handed doing something they didn't want the members to know they were doing (what else have they done without member knowledge?). They should own it.

But they don't appear to be capable of doing so, do they?

If the FP/12 approved this as Christofferson stated, then why is the coming clarification backpedaling announcement being made in a limited venue and via the President of the 70?

This national media commentary blasting the new policy, and more interestingly the comments of those trying to defend it, make crystal clear just how ill-advised and damaging to the LDS Church this latest fiasco has been.

The various defenses of the new policy offered by members in the comments section (including complaints that people just want to persecute the LDS Church) are weak and, at times, simply ridiculous.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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Re: Letter sent to SP's - damage control.

Post by _DrW »

annie wrote:I reckon they can wriggle out of it in a way that will satisfy many of the faithful.

The policy was only evoked for a tentative, trial period, but we were forced to clarify publicly before we had finished giving the matter its due consideration. Now we've had time to seek further inspiration we'd like to make the following clarifications...

Additionally, Dehlin is a super-dooper evil apostate for leaking the policy and causing so many souls to doubt the brethren and leave precipitously. Blessed are the ones who stayed and demonstrated faith in the brethren; they have passed this Abrahamic test.


Hey Annie,

This is great stuff. Don't be surprised if you get a call from the COB looking for consultants to help them manage this train wreck. :biggrin:
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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