The obvious question

[_consiglieri]

I listened to a podcast yesterday about how a SLC lawyer was certain the Church foresaw the fallout from this and were willing to take the fallout as an acceptable cost.

I disagree.

History is rife with circumstances where otherwise intelligent people did something that caused a fallout completely unexpected and uncalculated.

Pearl Harbor comes to mind.

[Guest]

False dichotomy. There are plenty of choices other than inspired or stupid.

I'd like to point out that otherwise smart people do dumb stuff and make mistakes all the time.

Saying the only choices are inspired or stupid puts the church in a corner when it comes to the black priesthood/temple ban. I guess MG would agree that one falls under the stupid category. Right? Does that mean every leader under that evil policy was not at all smart?

What's funny about the dichotomy is that it is basically saying that if the policy isn't inspired then it should be regarded as stupid. Outside of revelation, it can only be logically and rationally described as stupid.
Doesn't that speak volumes about the policy? One can't argue for it on it's own merits so the only fallback is to say that God wants it.

[_Runtu]

I listened to a podcast yesterday about how a Salt Lake City lawyer was certain the Church foresaw the fallout from this and were willing to take the fallout as an acceptable cost.

I disagree.

History is rife with circumstances where otherwise intelligent people did something that caused a fallout completely unexpected and uncalculated.

Pearl Harbor comes to mind.

I don't think we'll ever know what they were thinking or whether they foresaw what would happen. Either way, I've never seen anything like this in my 51 years in the church. I go back and forth on this: either they really are that clueless, or this is a manufactured crisis intended to simultaneously sift out a few tares while reinvigorating the loyalty and persecution complex of a lot of people.

[_just me]

or this is a manufactured crisis intended to simultaneously sift out a few tares while reinvigorating the loyalty and persecution complex of a lot of people.

Which, in my mind, would make them horrible, horrible human beings. I hesitate to use the "E" word.

[_Runtu]

Which, in my mind, would make them horrible, horrible human beings. I hesitate to use the "E" word.

There are plenty of people who are almost joyful that this policy has had a sifting effect. I don't hesitate: rejoicing at another's loss of faith is evil, as is hurting families to sift out the weak. Full stop.

[_I have a question]

They either believe that they have no choice because they think that this policy is the mind and will of God...or they are stupid.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

[_consiglieri]

MG is right, I think.

Elder Holland had to sign off on this policy.

And we all know he is not a dodo.

[_annie]

I don't know whose idea it was, but they're in a bit of a tight spot publicity-wise at the moment. I've been thinking that one way out of it would be to emulate Moses:

1. Tear up this new policy (maybe literally - that would make a nice moment on TV).

2. Blame the members for its failure: they weren't ready to do things the Lord's way.

3. As a result of the members' failure to sustain the prophet, announce that the Lord has revealed a replacement policy or a "lower law."

4. Reveal the watered-down version of the policy.

5. State that once the members can demonstrate exact obedience and absolute faith in their leaders (ie. when they have stopped wandering in the wilderness) the Lord will deign to issue further edicts.

[_Runtu]

So your argument is, they must be right, or led by God on this matter, because, they aren't stupid? How do you know they aren't stupid? Stupid in what way? Is Obama stupid? Is Boehner stupid? Is Bernie stupid? Is Trump stupid? Was Hillary stupid with her email server? Does that decision make her stupid? Was Carli Fiorina a stupid person when she saddled HP with Compaq? Did that bad decision make her stupid? Perhaps Pope Francis is stupid to preach tolerance? Was going in Iraq a mistake? President Hinckley supported it. Did his support make him stupid?

Can otherwise educated and intelligent people not do very stupid things? Yeah, there are some impressive people in leadership that seem pretty smart, they have degrees from good schools and whatnot. There are people with backgrounds every bit as impressive who are on this forum right now bitching about the church.

Even if the policy itself is brilliant, was it smart for them to enact it the way they did? Might they have tempered things with some explanation beforehand? You say they have good reasons for this. Ok, what are those reasons? Why are they allowing people to go crazy on blogs and discussion forums? Why aren't they explaining themselves? If they came before the general membership, humbly, and said, "look, this is really hard, we don't want to do this, but because of X, Y, and Z we feel backed into a corner, etc." things would be totally different right now. If this were the least bad of nothing but bad options, I'd defend them. For example, if this really was about legally protecting the church, if there truly was a blatantly unconstitutional possibility of the government forcing the church to comply, I'd totally be on the church's side with this.

I have no doubt that the leaders think they are doing the right thing. I don't care. They also thought they were doing the right thing with banning blacks from the church and letting that persist until decades after the civil rights movement. Politicians that I vehemently disagree with also think they are doing the right thing.

The job of the apostles is to bring souls unto Christ. That's it. Not play politics or infantilize people. Not act like it knows what's best for people and micromanage their existence. How does this policy help bring anybody to Christ? And I ask that question from the perspective of the church that considers homosexuality a particularly grievous sin. How does this policy help those who, for whatever reason, struggle with homosexuality come to Christ? Leadership is something natural. You don't need to guilt people or compel them through fear or rules. People naturally gravitate towards good leadership. It inspires them to be better. You want to be like that guy. Nothing about this is inspiring.

Excellent post. The policy seems based on fear and division, not on inspiring anyone to anything, and certainly not on inviting people to come unto Christ.

[_I have a question]

MG's response seems to be.

"I believe in them so they can't be stupid because that would make me stupid and I'm not stupid because I believe in them therefore they aren't stupid."