Why do members leave the Church?

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_I have a question
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Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _I have a question »

Guest Post by Nathan McCluskey. What follows is an extract from a 15 minute sacrament talk Nathan was asked to give as the Ward Mission Leader on the topic of “Reactivation and Rescuing.”

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon ... ment-talk/

I would like to read out some of their responses in the hope that we all recognise just how different the reasons for people not coming to church are and why it is a mistake to suppose there is a silver bullet to solve this issue and to dispense with any allusions you may have if you thought I was going to offer one:

“Hi Nathan, thank you for asking. Until one has been asked, others are going on assumptions formed by their experience rather than the view of the person in question. It is something that I’m sure my family would like to know as well! You have spurred me to write it down; for you, me, family, posterity and whoever wants to know. It probably won’t be in time for your talk, but maybe it may help with your understanding and your calling. Hopefully, I’ll have it down today. Whenever it’s ready, you’ll be the first to have it. After my wife, of course.”

The lesson I learnt from this is that it is important to ask rather than assume why someone isn’t coming.

“Hi Nathan. I can’t speak for anyone else, but the reason I no longer go to church is that I no longer believe any of the truth claims and my personal values do not align with those of the organization. Areas of non-alignment include the marginalization of women and the archaic and harmful treatment of homosexuals. It isn’t about the people. I love many Mormons. I just no longer see church as a healthy place for me to be and nothing anyone can do would get me back to church. I have felt enormous relief over the last six months and the thought of going to church is unappealing. I miss the people though."

"Thanks for asking and thanks for not trying to rescue me. The very word makes me feel ill. Not a good term to use. I guess the point is that there are many reasons why people are not attending and it is important to respect their right to make their own choices. I think the message is often that everyone would come back if they were asked in the right way.”

The lesson I learnt from this is that we can’t force belief and if we can’t even explain or justify why as a church we believe or practice certain things, how can we expect others to accept them?

“The biggest hurdle is being single in a church which is all about families. When you hear anything about singles, it almost seems desperate. ‘We know you hurt and things aren’t how you expected, but it will all work out in due course.’ Really? Do these people really know what loneliness is?”

The lesson I learnt from this is that we need to be really careful about what we focus on. When we focus on things that exclude people rather than things that include them, we make people disengage with us.


One commenter wonders aloud why this kind of honesty isn't displayed during General Conference...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Corsair
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Re: Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _Corsair »

I have a question wrote:One commenter wonders aloud why this kind of honesty isn't displayed during General Conference...

This will sound cynical, but encouraging saints to have sympathy with unfaithful people might lead to sympathy to their unfaithful ideas. LDS culture is still far too insular at the local level.

This ward in New Zealand had a nice message in sacrament meeting, but the other 30,000 congregations in the world are getting the usual message to doggedly pursue less actives through spiritual home teaching messages. I appreciate this effort and similar efforts from Patrick Mason, Richard Bushman, and Tyrell Givens. But none of these guys will ever be speaking in general conference with a message of nuanced, mature belief. I have enjoyed the ideas that each of these pastoral apologists, but their message was not delivered to my stalwart bishop, my temple worker parents, or my faithful wife.

The average Mormon continues to be mired in the siege mentality fostered by Brigham Young's kingdom in Utah. I am sympathetic to rumors that top leadership would like to change these attitudes. But I simply can't stick around for decades waiting for the emergence of a more healthy outlook on faith transition in the average LDS ward.
_Aoife
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Re: Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _Aoife »

I have a question wrote:
Guest Post by Nathan McCluskey. What follows is an extract from a 15 minute sacrament talk Nathan was asked to give as the Ward Mission Leader on the topic of “Reactivation and Rescuing.”

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon ... ment-talk/

I would like to read out some of their responses in the hope that we all recognise just how different the reasons for people not coming to church are and why it is a mistake to suppose there is a silver bullet to solve this issue and to dispense with any allusions you may have if you thought I was going to offer one:

“Hi Nathan, thank you for asking. Until one has been asked, others are going on assumptions formed by their experience rather than the view of the person in question. It is something that I’m sure my family would like to know as well! You have spurred me to write it down; for you, me, family, posterity and whoever wants to know. It probably won’t be in time for your talk, but maybe it may help with your understanding and your calling. Hopefully, I’ll have it down today. Whenever it’s ready, you’ll be the first to have it. After my wife, of course.”

The lesson I learnt from this is that it is important to ask rather than assume why someone isn’t coming.

“Hi Nathan. I can’t speak for anyone else, but the reason I no longer go to church is that I no longer believe any of the truth claims and my personal values do not align with those of the organization. Areas of non-alignment include the marginalization of women and the archaic and harmful treatment of homosexuals. It isn’t about the people. I love many Mormons. I just no longer see church as a healthy place for me to be and nothing anyone can do would get me back to church. I have felt enormous relief over the last six months and the thought of going to church is unappealing. I miss the people though."

"Thanks for asking and thanks for not trying to rescue me. The very word makes me feel ill. Not a good term to use. I guess the point is that there are many reasons why people are not attending and it is important to respect their right to make their own choices. I think the message is often that everyone would come back if they were asked in the right way.”

The lesson I learnt from this is that we can’t force belief and if we can’t even explain or justify why as a church we believe or practice certain things, how can we expect others to accept them?

“The biggest hurdle is being single in a church which is all about families. When you hear anything about singles, it almost seems desperate. ‘We know you hurt and things aren’t how you expected, but it will all work out in due course.’ Really? Do these people really know what loneliness is?”

The lesson I learnt from this is that we need to be really careful about what we focus on. When we focus on things that exclude people rather than things that include them, we make people disengage with us.


One commenter wonders aloud why this kind of honesty isn't displayed during General Conference...


It's pretty clear in most of these statements that the former members are saying the content is the problem. So it's interesting that even in this reflective and far healthier perspective by Mr. McCluskey, there remains this idea that the way Mormonism is being presented is the problem. That if Mormons present themselves differently, improve teh soft-skills, the speaking skills, the results will be different-- "we need to be really careful about what we focus on," "if we can't explain or justify...how can we expect others to accept," etc. There's isn't a healthy sense of adult boundaries clearly asked for in the responses--"thank you for not trying to rescue me," "nothing anyone can do would get me back to church."

Having said that, I can't imagine how a talk on “Reactivation and Rescuing” could be healthy. The very concepts are fundamentally invasive and problematic. I guess he could say "Live your own life and mind your own business." I'd love to see how that talk goes over, lol.
_sock puppet
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Re: Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _sock puppet »

Pinning the blame for all apostasy and defection on a 'desire to sin' gives those LDS yet it the fold a sense and air of moral superiority over those poor apostate fools.

Acknowledging that some leave over the vacuous LDS content leaves those remaining LDS looking to be the fools wondering what it might be that they don't know but the apostates do. Nothing out of that on which to hoist themselves up to look down on apostates. It's just a non-starter for the 15 and the 'faithful' LDS. From their perspective, better to keep insisting everyone that defects from the LDS truth claims does so just so they can sin.
_candygal
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Re: Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _candygal »

As for my personal experience..aside from all the issues and the things I learned about Joseph and church history, my main anger stemmed from the fact that the church was the biggest reason my immediate family fought about. Watching my father brow beat Mom on coffee...the strict obedience that was demanded from us kids and the horrible judgement of our ward members ..suddenly became for naught. All the heartache my Mom went through..the beatings of my halfbrother was because of demands of a father that believed in the very letter of the restoration. I was pissed. What it does to families is it steals the very love out of it.
_sock puppet
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Re: Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _sock puppet »

candygal wrote:As for my personal experience..aside from all the issues and the things I learned about Joseph and church history, my main anger stemmed from the fact that the church was the biggest reason my immediate family fought about. Watching my father brow beat Mom on coffee...the strict obedience that was demanded from us kids and the horrible judgement of our ward members ..suddenly became for naught. All the heartache my Mom went through..the beatings of my halfbrother was because of demands of a father that believed in the very letter of the restoration. I was pissed. What it does to families is it steals the very love out of it.

Organizations include some people and exclude others. The LDS church is no different. It creates a divide, and is divisive along that divide. John Lennon invited us all to
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need…


But such would strip the LDS hierarchy of their power. Now go figure why they wouldn't want to do that.
_consiglieri
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Re: Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _consiglieri »

Has anyone brought up the perspective that, after a certain amount of time, LDS church meetings are actually painful to attend?
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_sock puppet
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Re: Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _sock puppet »

consiglieri wrote:Has anyone brought up the perspective that, after a certain amount of time, LDS church meetings are actually painful to attend?

Only if your mind isn't somewhere else.
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

candygal wrote:As for my personal experience..aside from all the issues and the things I learned about Joseph and church history, my main anger stemmed from the fact that the church was the biggest reason my immediate family fought about. Watching my father brow beat Mom on coffee...the strict obedience that was demanded from us kids and the horrible judgement of our ward members ..suddenly became for naught. All the heartache my Mom went through..the beatings of my halfbrother was because of demands of a father that believed in the very letter of the restoration. I was pissed. What it does to families is it steals the very love out of it.


It would be interesting...but would obviously be impossible...to have accurate stats on how often the 'family dynamics'...due to culture/doctrinal understandings/fundamentalism/abuse/poor relationships/way husbands treat wives, etc., cause the disaffected to leave. Relationships with fathers and/or other males...spouses, male leaders...have been shown to have an impact/connection with how one sees God...as a kind Heavenly Father rather than something else...tyrant/cold heartless, etc.

Makes sense.

Very few people grow up in 'picture perfect' families. So I think it isn't a stretch to think that there are a goodly number of people that might find it difficult to develop a healthy relationship with God. One would think this might/may impact the relationship a person may have with the church also as 'God' is major player in what the church is all about.

Regards,
MG
_Sanctorian
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Re: Why do members leave the Church?

Post by _Sanctorian »

MG wrote:Very few people grow up in 'picture perfect' families. So I think it isn't a stretch to think that there are a goodly number of people that might find it difficult to develop a healthy relationship with God. One would think this might/may impact the relationship a person may have with the church also as 'God' is major player in what the church is all about.

Regards,
MG


It's funny you bring this up. Most people don't actually grow up in the "forever family" the church teaches about. What's worse, when you're in one of those families that doesn't quite fit the description of the church, there really is no place for you at church.

Forever single - no place for you
Gay - no place for you
Abusive father - keep taking the abuse because he has the priesthood
Part member family - depression thinking about your wayward family members
Etc, etc.
I'm a Ziontologist. I self identify as such.
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