WTF? MD&D Members Defending Hitlers Proxy Baptism.

[_candygal]

He should have come after me Craig. You are just so much more impressive than Candygal!

[_The Dude]

Who's the more foolish? The fool who claims to baptize dead people, or the fool who gets upset about it?

I don't it is foolish to be upset about a church that baptises murdered people when their surviving relations are profoundly offended by hearing that a religion alien to them has, as it seems, made an attempt to appropriate their dead. Or to be upset when one finds that the person who instigated the murders has been selected out of all the billions of dead humans to be invited to join the murder victims in the same church.

But Chap, are they really baptizing and appropriating dead people? I mean really? Think about it. What changes in the world when a Mormon does a pretend ritual behind closed doors? (It's not like they are publicizing this to the world.) I think it is foolish to be profoundly offended by this discovery.

What if we were to discover that someone was masturbating while thinking of Marylin Monroe, who is dead. Are you offended that they imagined her that way? Should her living relatives be offended? Did someone appropriate their dead? Does he own a piece of her now? I think it is foolish to be profoundly offended by this discovery.

[_Chap]

What changes in the world when a Mormon does a pretend ritual behind closed doors? (It's not like they are publicizing this to the world.) I think it is foolish to be profoundly offended by this discovery.

We've done all this before, so I don't want to rehash all the counter-arguments put forward when DCP advanced the same basic argument as you do here. (Yes, you are very far from resembling DCP - as we both understand very well.)

Your argument hinges on the notion of 'changes in the world' - a formulation that suggests there is some kind of real world consisting of things that matter, plus a kind of unreal fuzzy non-world that doesn't. You consign the sense of intrusion of Holocaust victim relations at Mormon proxy baptism of their dead to that non-world.

But that is simple a rhetorical maneuver. You might equally validly say that standing in the cemetery during a funeral giving the middle finger to the casket of someone's mother changes nothing in the world, so it is foolish for anybody to be offended.

Whether or not the CoJCoLDS sought to publicise Holocaust victim proxy baptisms is besides the point. Holocaust victim relations came to know of this practice, were offended at the attempt by a Christian group to in some way incorporate their relations into a group that the huge majority of those murdered relations would have seen as quite alien, and asked the CoJCoLDS to desist.

To their credit, the CoJCoLDS leadership made some effort to stop the practice. It's good to know that most members seem to have respected that.

[_The Dude]

We've done all this before, so I don't want to rehash all the counter-arguments put forward when DCP advanced the same basic argument as you do here.

Well I think there is more to explore here. I think your dismissal of my POV is also a rhetorical maneuver. But since DCP has already pooped in the porridge, it's probably best to just let it go.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Is it worth the energy to feel outraged? in my opinion, no. However, there is a sort of visceral sense of disrespect when an organization does something it thinks is real that is explicitly against your wishes because you're now faced with the knowledge someone is taking a giant crap all over your loved one's memory.

For example, when my mother died every_single_time I think of her I'm forced to remember her lying in that oak casket with her garments on. That stupid “F” ing image is seared into my brain and I can't get rid of it. I think of chatting with her as a kid? Warm and fuzzy, no? FLASH! GARMENTS! FLASH. I think of sitting with her in her gift shop helping to sell chotchkies? Warm and fuzzy, no? FLASH! GARMENTS! FLASH.

I'd have much preferred remembering my mother without the involuntary mind-rape of her in that ridiculous outfit, and I think that's what people are getting at. If they're forced to involuntarily think about their mother being dead dunked it creates an unnecessary and offensive ideo they're forced to confront... for the rest of their lives.

And I think that's unfair to them.

- Doc

[_just me]

This brings up an interesting idea. People should search their dead dunking records to see if various serial killers and other unsavory sorts have had their work performed for them.

- Dingle Doc

I once researched famous people (especially Jews and religious leaders) to see if their work had been done. It has. There appears to be a small number of people (less than a handful) who are submitting every famous person when they die.

Anyway, after a day or two of these searches I was kicked off the FamilySearch website. They revoked my ability to use it just for looking these names up. So, search at your own risk.