Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's fall?

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_Themis
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _Themis »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Well, he certainly has a spark of inquiry. You don't post like he does and attempt to write books because you're not an intellectually curious person. I'd like to see him get a little more book smart on the things he discounts. It could probably serve his approach better.

- Doc


His only spark is to look for things that he believes support what he already wants to believe.
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_Gadianton
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _Gadianton »

Zarinus wrote:That is an assumption. It is a theory. It is not an observable phenomenon in nature.


Zarinus wrote:Maybe it is those who offer a different explanation are the ones who are misusing the term “theory” in reference to a “scientific theory”.


Nope, the failure is all yours. Have you ever heard of the theory of relativity? Have you ever heard of the theory of gravity? Have you ever heard of quantum theory? How about game theory? or statistical theory? How about the metabolic theory of pulmonary arterial hypertension? Your prophet and seer Russel M. Nelson has heard about that last one I'll bet.

There is a hell of a lot of observing in nature that goes along with theory. You don't have a post-secondary education. right? You only research something if you need to get out of an apologetics predicament, right? Your understanding of evolution comes straight from creationist websites, right?

There is a sense in which some people, most likely creationists, understand theory, that is different from the term's standard use, to mean conjecture or hypothesis without enough experimental evidence to establish it as a fact. Interestingly, this stems from bad information actually found in real science textbooks and possibly from informative segments on children's network television shows like Sesame Street. I certainly recall from grade school that a theory is a tentative supposition that can become a fact. Why this is so wrong is really a somewhat complex phenomena that you are likely not capable of comprehending. You have a team of real scientists who know biology or archaeology or whatnot, but by conventions inherited in textbook composition, there are obligatory references to the "scientific method," and boilerplate dealing with these tangent topics gets recycled over and over again.

It's almost as if nature laid a trap for pseudoscientists such as creationsists -- yourself being counted among these ranks.

Here is a biology or earth science text written for middle school or lower, and it clearly makes this theory/fact distinction. Barefoot southern Christian creationists go back to texts written for elementary students and discover that a) there is a "theory of evolution" and b) that according to the scientific method (that gets less than 200 words) a theory can be proven with observation to become a fact. They then reason that evolution is not a fact. Further, let's not confuse all scientific inquiry with experimental science. Controlled experiments are great when the option is available -- and let's not confuse your stupid Moroni 10 challenge with a real controlled experiment -- but it's not always possible to perform an experiment. Dr. W. brought up genetics, and this kind of reasoning is no different than counting the rings on a tree trunk. You can figure out what 139 tree rings mean without planting a tree in a lab and cutting it down after 139 years.

The typical education deficit creationist actually does take a cursory look at what science has to say, but having little to know experience gets hung up in tangent areas such as the so-called scientific method, and latches on to badly transmitted information. This gets recycled and from there its an extrapolation festival and no one ever does some basic fact checking -- including you. So certain ideas such as a "theory becoming fact" make great markers (like tree rings and genes) for assessing how a person has come into the supposed knowledge that they have. Makes for dead giveaway when the person has no real education and is passing around recycled pseudoscience.
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_DrW
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _DrW »

Zarinus wrote:That is an assumption. It is a theory. It is not an observable phenomenon in nature.

The examples of hybrid speciation provided upthread as demonstrations of speciation that could take place in the span of a human lifetime were apparently not to zerinus' liking. He claimed to remain unconvinced regarding evolution.

Not to worry.

There are plenty of examples of ecological speciation (evolution) that can take place in the span of a human lifetime as well. One need only consider shorter lived species that may go through many generations in say 50 years or so. One generation per year may be sufficient.

The image below shows an example of ecological speciation. The change in environment that led to this particular mutation was increased use of coal as fuel in the UK. See here for more detailed information.

This is a great example of anthropogenically induced environmental effects on the evolution of non-human species. One could hardly come up with a better example to counter zerinus' nonsense claim that evolution is "not an observable phenomenon in nature".

Image
___________

Ecological speciation is primed, or initiated, by epigenetic effects in response to changes in the environment. As described in the NYT article cited above, these can lead to physical changes in the genome over time and thus eventually become heritable.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_bcuzbcuz
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

DrW wrote:
zerinus wrote:That is an assumption. It is a theory. It is not an observable phenomenon in nature.

The examples of hybrid speciation provided upthread as demonstrations of speciation that could take place in the span of a human lifetime were apparently not to zerinus' liking. He claimed to remain unconvinced regarding evolution.

Not to worry.

There are plenty of examples of ecological speciation that can take place in the span of a human lifetime. One needs only consider shorter lived species that may go through many generations in say 50 years or so. One generation per year may be sufficient.

The image below shows an example of ecological speciation. The change in environment that led to this particular instance was caused by increased use of coal as fuel in the UK. See here for more detailed information.

This is a great example of anthropogenically induced environmental effects on the evolution of non-human species. One could hardly come up with a better example to counter zerinus' nonsense claim that evolution is "not an observable phenomenon in nature".

Image
___________

Ecological speciation is primed, or initiated, by epigenetic effects in response to changes in the environment. As described in the NYT article cited above, over time, these can lead to physical changes in the genome and thus eventually become heritable.


I always enjoy your discussion points, in most topics. But I'm confused. I understand that this OP was directly aimed at the Z, but I don't understand the continued arguing/discussion.

Zerinus is a feather lightweight fighting in a heavy weight bout. He really doesn't get the many detailed points put forth in argument.

This is a game that should be called on account of rain. There is a pleasure in having a balanced match up between equally qualified. It is another thing entirely when the opponent is under qualified and is too stupid to recognise it. It turns into bullying, a mauling and a waste of time.
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
_DrW
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _DrW »

bcuzbcuz wrote:
I always enjoy your discussion points, in most topics. But I'm confused. I understand that this OP was directly aimed at the Z, but I don't understand the continued arguing/discussion.

Zerinus is a feather lightweight fighting in a heavy weight bout. He really doesn't get the many detailed points put forth in argument.

This is a game that should be called on account of rain. There is a pleasure in having a balanced match up between equally qualified. It is another thing entirely when the opponent is under qualified and is too stupid to recognise it. It turns into bullying, a mauling and a waste of time.

bcuzbcuz,

If this were just about zerinus, I would agree with you. Were this just about zerinus, my guess is that folks like Gadianton, and certain others, would have not even posted on this thread. We all have better things to do.

However, this is not just about zerinus. As Maksutov noted upthread, there seems to be a growing wave of woo (-woo) in our society, promoted and promulgated by religious fundamentalists, many of whom are creationists. Many of these are to be found in the Mormon church and some of them lurk on this site. (Consider that there are probably a dozen or so folks who have posted here and the thread has more than 650 views so far.)

The fact based arguments and information being provided by the rational folks here is a small contribution in trying to counter the corrosive pseudoscientific creationist bs and woo woo that now soils the internet.

In the case of my contribution to the thread, I simply wanted to counter the nonsense found on creationist websites regarding evolution by showing that both hybrid and ecological speciation could be demonstrated in the span of a human lifetime.

In general, I seldom post to threads on which zerinus is posting. My responses to him are few and far between. You could say the same.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_SuperDell
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _SuperDell »

Did God kill animals to make "Coats of Skins" for Adam and Eve? Or are there naked animals running around from it?
“Those who never retract their opinions love themselves more than they love truth.”
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I'd like to see Zerinus challenge some of Dr. W's assertions.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_zerinus
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _zerinus »

SuperDell wrote:Did God kill animals to make "Coats of Skins" for Adam and Eve? Or are there naked animals running around from it?
LOL! Clever girl, smart question. God made cotes of skins for Adam and Eve after the Fall had already taken place, so presumably death had already entered into the world, and creation had already fallen, so that should not present a serious problem. Another thing to point out is that while the Genesis account of creation portrays the events as occuring in rapid succession, in reality there may have been long time lapses between the events described.
_Maksutov
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _Maksutov »

zerinus wrote:You can call it that all the day long if you want to, it doesn’t prove a thing. Like I said, I believe in miracles. You can call it what you like.


Z-boy when data is presented. :lol:

Image
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_zerinus
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _zerinus »

DrW wrote:
zerinus wrote:That is an assumption. It is a theory. It is not an observable phenomenon in nature.

The examples of hybrid speciation provided upthread as demonstrations of speciation that could take place in the span of a human lifetime were apparently not to zerinus' liking. He claimed to remain unconvinced regarding evolution.

Not to worry.

There are plenty of examples of ecological speciation (evolution) that can take place in the span of a human lifetime as well. One need only consider shorter lived species that may go through many generations in say 50 years or so. One generation per year may be sufficient.

The image below shows an example of ecological speciation. The change in environment that led to this particular mutation was increased use of coal as fuel in the UK. See here for more detailed information.

This is a great example of anthropogenically induced environmental effects on the evolution of non-human species. One could hardly come up with a better example to counter zerinus' nonsense claim that evolution is "not an observable phenomenon in nature".

Image
___________

Ecological speciation is primed, or initiated, by epigenetic effects in response to changes in the environment. As described in the NYT article cited above, these can lead to physical changes in the genome over time and thus eventually become heritable.
Wrong as usual. This is a classic example of "natural selection," which does not translate into "evolution" (as explained in by blog). The very image supplied belies the claim. The caption under the image says: "A mating pair of peppered moths." If the two different kinds of moths are mating, that means that they still belong to the same species. The actual species has not changed. No "evolution" has taken place.

A black cat and a white cat is still a cat. Now if a wolf came into town, and started eating the white cats, and left the black ones alone, so that the white cats became scarce, and the black ones became more common; and the black ones started to breed among themselves and produce more and more black cats; does that mean that the cats have "evolved" to become a different species? How ridiculous is that?
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