Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's fall?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Zerinus,

Ok. I think I understand that you don't believe anything was on earth before Eden was placed here, and you don't believe anything died before he disobeyed-obeyed God-Father.

How do you square that against our current scientific knowledge?

- Doc

[_zerinus]

Zerinus,

Ok. I think I understand that you don't believe anything was on earth before Eden was placed here, and you don't believe anything died before he disobeyed-obeyed God-Father.

That is not what I said. I answered the question that was asked, which is not the same as the question you are presuming.

How do you square that against our current scientific knowledge?

- Doc

Already answered.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Zerinus,

I'll take your answer that you don't believe death existed on this earth before Adam sinned and that you don't know how science works as a tacit admission you have no ability to flesh out your ideas for the layman like myself.

I'm curious if you understand how bones become fossilized since that seems to be a sticking point for you? Would you like me to explain how that process works and how that doesn't square with the biblical creation narrative?

- Doc

[_zerinus]

Zerinus,

I'll take your answer that you don't believe death existed on this earth before Adam sinned and that you don't know how science works as a tacit admission you have no ability to flesh out your ideas for the layman like myself.

Not true. I answered those questions for you in this post:

Your question is not as straightforward as you might think. When you say “death before Adam’s fall,” how far do you want to go back “before Adam’s fall”? You see, in Mormon theology this earth is not the only inhabited planet. There have been trillions of them before, and will continue to be after. The universe has been and will continue to be full of inhabited planets. So “death before the Fall” needs to be understood in that context. So was there “death before the Fall”? Yes there was, at least on other planets. As far as this planet specifically is concerned, again we don’t know the answer to that question if you go back far enough. Was this earth part of an earlier “creation cycle”? We have no way of knowing, unless it is revealed to us by God. But I think that the real question you are asking is:

1. Do I believe in the literal creation story of the Bible?
2. Do I believe in Evolution?
3. How do I explain the discovery fossils dating back millions of years?

The answer to the first question is Yes.
The answer to the second question is No.

The answer to the third question is, I don't know. There are too many unknowns to be able to answer that question without further revelation. But I believe there is no contradiction between that and my earlier statements. The existence of fossils dating back to millions of years before the chronology of creation story of the Bible does not invalidate the creation story. Other explanations for it exist which do not cause a contradiction between two.

I honestly don’t know how to say it that will make it any clearer than that. Perhaps other posters who are more articulate than I am can help you out.

I'm curious if you understand how bones become fossilized since that seems to be a sticking point for you? Would you like me to explain how that process works and how that doesn't square with the biblical creation narrative?

- Doc

Irrelevant.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Zerinus,

If fossils were irrelevant why did you introduce them into the conversation? Maybe someone else can explain what I'm not seeing? I thought Zerinus clearly stated he doesn't believe there was death on this earth prior to our Adam committing the first sin? He seems to be agreeing by reiterating the point I'm making by repeating himself.

Let's review the conversation.

I asked, "Zerinus, do you believe there death before Adam's fall?"

He responded with (I'll insert my comments into the quotation):

Your question is not as straightforward as you might think. It was 100% a straightforward question. You could literally answer it with a simple yes or no.

When you say “death before Adam’s fall,” how far do you want to go back “before Adam’s fall”?
I want to go to right before his fall.

You see, in Mormon theology this earth is not the only inhabited planet. There have been trillions of them before, and will continue to be after. The universe has been and will continue to be full of inhabited planets. So “death before the Fall” needs to be understood in that context. This earth. Our Adam.

So was there “death before the Fall”? Yes there was, at least on other planets. As far as this planet specifically is concerned, again we don’t know the answer to that question if you go back far enough. Just right before our Adam's first sin.

Was this earth part of an earlier “creation cycle”? Irrelevant.

We have no way of knowing, unless it is revealed to us by God. But I think that the real question you are asking is:

1. Do I believe in the literal creation story of the Bible? Irrelevant.
2. Do I believe in Evolution? Irrelevant.
3. How do I explain the discovery fossils dating back millions of years? Irrelevant.

The answer to the first question is Yes. Irrelevant.
The answer to the second question is No. Irrelevant.

The answer to the third question is, I don't know. Irrelevant.

There are too many unknowns to be able to answer that question without further revelation. Irrelevant.

But I believe there is no contradiction between that and my earlier statements. Irrelevant.

The existence of fossils dating back to millions of years before the chronology of creation story of the Bible does not invalidate the creation story. Irrelevant.

Other explanations for it exist which do not cause a contradiction between two. Irrelevant.

- Doc

[_Gadianton]

Brigham Young said Satan planted the dinosaur bones. Z's position pretty much reflects the orthodox Mormon position in this case and so is not surprising. He might not understand science but at least in this case, he understands what the Church teaches.

[_Nightlion]

Why would you dismiss that as allegorical and not the rest? If Eve did not come from the rib, was she created out of dirt like Adam or do you believe they both had human parents?

Geeze, guys, all you have to do is read my paper linked in my sig. Wonders of Eternity and all that you wonder will no longer be.

For example. Adam and Eve were exalted from their resurrection when God made man in his own image and likeness......glory even a celestial glory, and they were male and female and commanded to multiply and replenish the world. BEFORE they were placed into the Garden. HELLO! That means when they were made they were already married.....sound right? Exalted to the continuation of the seeds both in the world and out of the world shall they continue?????any bells yet? And they finished all the hosts thereof. Before they were placed into the Garden. That took some time. What was the earth proper doing? Preparing the fossil fuels with abundant flora and fauna which got deep buried by attrition of more matter.Then there was no flesh upon the earth and no herbs in the field. A Garden was planted and man was placed there.No think with me people. How will a celestial man remain upon this earth and forget all? He was formed of the dust of this earth. Meaning that in preparation of the second kind of seed that exalted parents continue they needed a change in their nature to bring forth the physical bodies of humanity. The Lord calls it the dust of this earth. This process tethered Adam to this planet as he remained in the Garden. When he had assimilated those coarse element God took a rib or particles of that peculiar dust element Adam had suffered through and assimilated to make it somewhat easier for Eve to assimilate the same the figure of a rib taken from Adam to make the woman means that pre-assimilated elements of physicality were then given to Eve to tether her in the Garden and remove her memory as well.

Just because all Mormons have ignored the Restoration and seek only the gain and praise of the world does not mean everyone on the planet has stopped believing and might even be figuring things out. See how abundantly you and thrive with the real gift and power of the Holy Ghost Zerinus? All you got to do is obey Jesus Christ and get the REAL baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost........but ya got to forsake the world. Ain't nobody willing to do that. Especially these days and this world of the lying wonders of Satan. Which is all things electrical. As he is the prince and power of the air.......like lightning..
LIGHTNING

[_Gadianton]

Hey Themis check this out, Nightlion stood up to go all literal and look:

God took a rib or particles of that peculiar dust element Adam had suffered through

Not even Nightlion can take the word of God at face value and believe in a literal rib and makes it a metaphor for particles and dust elements etc. lol.

(by the way, I grew up in a household that taught men have one fewer ribs than women, thanks to the Lord taking one from Adam)

(also by the way, amateurs, metaphors for reductionist hypothesis are lame. As a great introduction, watch the old TV sci-fi series "Stargate")

[_moksha]

What is your version? Is it a version of LDS, or something else?

The fully restored version of Cafeteria Mormonism for Latter-Day Believers.

[_Themis]

Zerinus,

Ok. I think I understand that you don't believe anything was on earth before Eden was placed here, and you don't believe anything died before he disobeyed-obeyed God-Father.

How do you square that against our current scientific knowledge?

- Doc

I suspect Zerinus has little to no scientific knowledge. I think you would find most believing members who are scientifically literate tend to view creation as taking billions of years and evolution part of that creation. Those who don't tend to be more literal. I know some speculate on things like fossils that maybe they came from parts of other creations. They don't understand how it all really works to understand the scientific community is right about the age of the earth and that animals have been around for millions of years, humans over a hundred thousand years.