z wrote:the testimony of credible witnesses is sufficient to establish a case, and God took the trouble of providing such witnesses
So let's evaluate, using legal principles, the credibility of the testimony and what exactly the witnesses attested to-specifically. You are opening quite a can of worms with that.
z wrote:But when you start accusing him of lying, of perpetrating a fraud, as the critics have been doing, then the burden of proof shifts on them, not on him or us
it has been pointed out to you several times that this thread is discussing a claim and the burden of proof for that claim.
Dr. Shades wrote:I am a "Watcher," one of a race of godlike beings who are selected to incarnate into human bodies and live among sentient races to observe their goings-on and then report to our kindred on the progress of the race in question upon the death of our temporary mortal coils. As such, although my powers are nearly infinite, I must suppress them in order to fit in among you all.
That is my claim. If you think I'm lying, the burden of proof is on you, not me.
See my previous post. If you want to make that claim, that is okay, am not “accusing” you of anything. But if I did (assuming I took you seriously), then the burden of proof would be on me.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
zerinus wrote:God took the trouble of providing such witnesses so that no such accusations can reasonably be made.
Which one of the "credible witnesses" were capable of reading "reformed Egyptian"?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
zerinus wrote:If you don’t want to “believe,” that is okay, you have that choice, you are not obligated to. But when you start accusing him of lying, of perpetrating a fraud, as the critics have been doing, then the burden of proof shifts on them, not on him or us.
What are we supposed to make of Joseph Smith if we don't believe his story? Gordon B. Hinckley once said it is either true or a fraud, there is no middle ground. And when you have guys like the speaker at general conference challenging those who refuse to believe to explain themselves, how can we explain why we don't believe Joseph Smith's story without accusing him of fraud?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
The question I posed on that thread, to which no answer was forthcoming, was...
What would be the unique traits that would identify something as "God given"?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
Dr. Shades wrote:I am a "Watcher," one of a race of godlike beings who are selected to incarnate into human bodies and live among sentient races to observe their goings-on and then report to our kindred on the progress of the race in question upon the death of our temporary mortal coils. As such, although my powers are nearly infinite, I must suppress them in order to fit in among you all.
That is my claim. If you think I'm lying, the burden of proof is on you, not me.
See my previous post. If you want to make that claim, that is okay, am not “accusing” you of anything. But if I did (assuming I took you seriously), then the burden of proof would be on me.
Excellent! It looks like it is beginning to dawn on you, zerinus, what the thread is about--not accusations where presumption of innocence is an issue, but an entirely different thing-- discussions of a claim, for which the burden of proof is on the claimant.