BYU faculty and the Book of Mormon

[_mentalgymnast]

I guess I'm one of the old fogies here.

You are insulting a lot of clear-thinking and intellectually honest old fogies there.

I've been trying VERY hard not to insult you personally, Chap. But you make it very difficult.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

And so on...

You're right. I can't prove that the plates were used in the translation process. I suppose I ought to say...to clarify...that I can't see any reason why they couldn't have been used during the translation process. The fact that they weren't sitting right next to Joseph the whole time translation was taking place needn't be a deal breaker as far as the plates being used as the and/or a resource during that process.

Along with, apparently, text from the KJV Bible and other sources that were available to the 'translation group/committee'...including Joseph Smith.

Regards,
MG

LOL So now you have moved to he could have used the plates to translate. I guess that is about as much as we can expect you to admit that the plates were not essential to the translation. You still ignore the problem of why God didn't leave the plates for all to see. I doubt most believing members would suggest having more accurate knowledge diminishes our freedom to choose. All the choices are still there MG, and our ability to choose has not lessened. The only difference is now one knows the best choices for the best results we are seeking.

Earlier in the thread:

Truth be told, that would really be cool. Although if this was the case, you, I...and EVERYONE ELSE would be left without excuse but to adhere to and accept the Book of Mormon for what it purports to be. I'd call that enforced free agency.

Personally, I don't like to be forced/coerced into doing anything.

That doesn't seem to be the way God works in this world. We make our own choices. And we OWN them.

If the plates remained, I think that would subtract the element of choice to a LARGE if not insurmountable extent.

And I'm sticking to it.

It makes sense within the realm/paradigm of a life lived by/through faith.

If you want to do away with faith...then, well, what you would propose makes perfect sense. Why hide anything? Put it ALL out there for everyone to see vs. a select group that we then have to rely on.

I'll grant that your scenario of 'what God should have done' does make things a LOT more easy peasy. But a LOT less faith would be involved.

It all comes down to this sticky thing called faith.

Regards,
MG

[_Chap]

I guess I'm one of the old fogies here.

You are insulting a lot of clear-thinking and intellectually honest old fogies there.

I've been trying VERY hard not to insult you personally, Chap. But you make it very difficult.

[_mentalgymnast]

Just a reminder regarding the makeup of the 11 witnesses for lurkers who may not know or have forgotten.

6 were from the Whitmer family or related to the Whitmer family. Five brothers and a brother-in-law (Hiram Page).
4 were from the Smith family or related to the Smith family. Cowdery was a cousin of the Smith family, and Martin Harris - the least reliable of all of them.

So when you hear the number 11 being touted as if it were an impossibly large number of people to fool or hold together in a conspiracy, what you are really looking at are two families and a wacky friend who are tied into the story by relationships, cultural status, finances and the reputation of their own family name.

"But they never denied their testimony"

Well....duh.

Additional information:

Skeptics have discounted the "Testimony of Three Witnesses" on the ground of collusion or deception. Yet each of the three was a respected and independent member of non-Mormon society, active in his community. Their lives, fully documented, clearly demonstrate their honesty and intelligence. David Whitmer repeatedly reacted against charges of possible "delusion." To one skeptic, he responded: "Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view…but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time" (Anderson, p. 87). Perhaps their later alienation makes them even more credible as witnesses, for no collusion could have withstood their years of separation from the Church and from each other.

The testimonies of the Three and Eight Witnesses balance the supernatural and the natural, the one stressing the angel and heavenly voice, the other the existence of a tangible record on gold plates. To the end of their lives, each of the Three said he had seen the plates, and each of the Eight insisted that he had handled them. Most of the Eight and all of the Three Witnesses reiterated their Book of Mormon testimonies just before death. Together with Joseph Smith they fulfill Nephi's prophecy: "They shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein" (2 Ne. 27:12)
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses

Yes, the witness had a connection with each other.

Soon afterward, at the Smith farm in New York, eight others were allowed to view and handle the plates: Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith. Their signed "Testimony of Eight Witnesses" reports that Joseph Smith showed these eight men the metal plates, which they "hefted" while turning the individual "leaves" and examining the engravings of "curious workmanship." In 1829 the word curious carried the meaning of the Latin word for "careful," suggesting that the plates were wrought "with care and art." Five of these Eight Witnesses remained solidly with the Church; John Whitmer was excommunicated in 1838, and his brother Jacob Whitmer and brother-in-law Hiram Page then became inactive.

Most of these eleven witnesses were members of the large Smith and Whitmer families-families who had assisted in guarding and in translating the ancient record. Not surprisingly, other family members reported indirect contact with the plates and the translation. Young William Smith once helped his brother Joseph carry the plates wrapped in a work frock. Joseph's wife Emma Smith felt the pliable plates as she dusted around the cloth-covered record on her husband's translating table. Burdened with daily chores and caring for her family and visitors working on the translation, Mother Whitmer (Peter Whitmer, Sr.'s, wife) was shown the plates by a heavenly messenger to assure her that the work was of God.

Martin Harris, a prosperous farmer of Palmyra, New York, who had long sought a religion fulfilling biblical prophecy, assisted with the translation previous to his experience as a witness. In 1828 he spent two months transcribing as Joseph Smith dictated the first major segment of Book of Mormon translation-116 handwritten pages. After Martin lost these pages, he wrote no more for the Prophet, but he later financed the publication of the book.

Oliver Cowdery was the main scribe for the Book of Mormon. A schoolteacher, he learned of the gold plates and the translation while boarding with Joseph Smith's parents near Palmyra, New York. In early April 1829, Oliver walked from the Smith home to harmony, pennsylvania, where Joseph Smith was translating. On the way Oliver visited his friend David Whitmer, who also developed an intense interest in the new scripture. When persecution increased in Harmony, David came as requested and moved Joseph and Oliver to his family farm near Fayette (more than 100 miles away), about June 1.
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses

At that time and in that place and under those circumstances, it shouldn't surprise us that the witnesses came from a rather tight knit group/family.

Regards,
MG

[_Themis]

And I'm sticking to it.

It makes sense within the realm/paradigm of a life lived by/through faith.

Yet you cannot say how it makes sense. This is why I asked you about the scenario of needing to find the area of food and water. Having more knowledge does not change what the possible choices are. It just informs us which are more likely to benefit us and which are not.

If you want to do away with faith...then, well, what you would propose makes perfect sense. Why hide anything? Put it ALL out there for everyone to see vs. a select group that we then have to rely on.

I'll grant that your scenario of 'what God should have done' does make things a LOT more easy peasy. But a LOT less faith would be involved.

It all comes down to this sticky thing called faith.

I have asked you many times how this blind faith is a good thing with no real responses. This idea is about choosing the true beliefs about the world over the wrong ones without good evidence to know which is which. You then get rewarded or punished for these uninformed choices. If JW's are right, then only those who choose to believe and follow them get rewarded and the rest of us get punished. How is this fair when we were not given good evidence JW's are the right religion and expected to have faith in this religion? If you found yourself in the next life at the judgement and found out JW's were right and since you didn't choose them you go to hell would you feel you were fairly judged?

[_mentalgymnast]

If JW's are right, then only those who choose to believe and follow them get rewarded and the rest of us get punished. How is this fair when we were not given good evidence JW's are the right religion and expected to have faith in this religion? If you found yourself in the next life at the judgement and found out JW's were right and since you didn't choose them you go to hell would you feel you were fairly judged?

No matter which way you choose to go, according to LDS doctrine, you're not going to be caught in the same dilemma that you're proposing here.

There's something for everyone. And it's all part of God's Kingdom.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I have asked you many times how this blind faith is a good thing with no real responses.

It's not as much "blind faith" as much as a 'not being able to see clearly faith'. There's a difference. Can you see it?

Pun intended.

I think the Apostle Paul had it right.

Regards,
MG

[_Chap]

At that time and in that place and under those circumstances, it shouldn't surprise us that the witnesses came from a rather tight knit group/family.

And so it shouldn't surprise us that the testimony of the group of 'witnesses' whose names Smith listed* is not really very convincing to people who, quite reasonably, tend to be aware of the strong pressures to go along with one's kin group.

As Mark Twain indicated, adding yet more of Smith's family members to the 'witnesses' would have done little to persuade reasonable people that the hugely miraculous and wholly improbable events alleged had in fact occurred. But no doubt that's the way Smith's deity wanted it to be. Yup, he likes to mess with us like that.


*Let us recall that Smith's listing of their names is all we have. No document actually signed by these people exists.

[_The Soap Maker]

Truth be told, that would really be cool. Although if this was the case, you, I...and EVERYONE ELSE would be left without excuse but to adhere to and accept the Book of Mormon for what it purports to be. I'd call that enforced free agency.

Personally, I don't like to be forced/coerced into doing anything.

That doesn't seem to be the way God works in this world. We make our own choices. And we OWN them.

If the plates remained, I think that would subtract the element of choice to a LARGE if not insurmountable extent.

Regards,
MG

Hmmm...So, according to what you wrote above, Joseph Smith, along with the people that claimed to see the plates, were forced/coerced to believe.

[Guest]

And so it shouldn't surprise us that the testimony of the group of 'witnesses' whose names Smith listed* is not really very convincing to people who, quite reasonably, tend to be aware of the strong pressures to go along with one's kin group.

As Mark Twain indicated, adding yet more of Smith's family members to the 'witnesses' would have done little to persuade reasonable people that the hugely miraculous and wholly improbable events alleged had in fact occurred. But no doubt that's the way Smith's deity wanted it to be. Yup, he likes to mess with us like that.


*Let us recall that Smith's listing of their names is all we have. No document actually signed by these people exists.

I sometimes wonder if MG even actually reads a post and or understands its point, before pasting some boilerplate response, which actually, in this case reinforced my point of how the number of witnesses is unimportant. Eleven sounds like a lot for a conspiracy, until one considers they came from two families and one close friend.

Defendant:
"Why yes your honor I can prove these bills are not counterfeit. Everybody in my family or this other family I selected will absolutely confirm they are legitimate."

Judge:
"This other family, have they been passing the same bills?"

Defendant:
"Yes, yes they have, but they will swear that they are not counterfeit."