Why ExMos's turn atheist!

[_Dr Exiled]

It's fascinating to me that there's such a large, vibrant, noisy ex- group for Mormons. A similar sized church group, the Seventh Day Adventists, doesn't have such a large and articulate ex- community.

Does Mormonism produce an unusual number of former members? Does it produce an unusual number of schismatic groups? If so, why?

I think the Mormon phenomenon comes from the grandiose claims it makes. Joseph Smith reached for the mountaintop but instead fell off of a cliff. When I realized that, I investigated christianity in general and found its claims lacking as well. I would say that I am an atheist as to the gods presented by humankind but I still hope in something after this life.

[_Always Changing]

Well, it'd be nice if we can define what we're supposedly rejecting before we're accused of being extremists. For example, I'm fairly confident an uber-hominid occupying a planet near a star called Kolob doesn't exist. However, if you want to claim that a God or gods exist outside of our functional reality then I just have to shrug my shoulders because how do you argue against something like that?

- Doc

Irrefutable.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Mak!

Everyone I know is an atheist, including everyone on this board. Everyone reading this post knows that there are gods they *don't* believe in, therefore they're an atheist to those believers.

Yeah, in addition to other things like "sky daddy", this is one of the most common things that are parroted and trotted out.

So is it arrogant to dismiss Vishnu or Thor? Or more arrogant to believe in them?

In my mind, neither one of your examples are arrogant. They are simply way off topic and have almost nothing to do with what is being discussed on my end - in my opinion

When I talk about arrogant pretentious pricks, think Bill Maher.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Maksutov]

Hey Mak!

Everyone I know is an atheist, including everyone on this board. Everyone reading this post knows that there are gods they *don't* believe in, therefore they're an atheist to those believers.

Yeah, in addition to other things like "sky daddy", this is one of the most common things that are parroted and trotted out.

But it's still true. There are billions in the world who believe in gods that we don't. That makes us atheists regarding those gods. So atheism is practiced selectively, discriminatingly, but still practiced universally. And so the situation is complex.

As far as prickishness, thanks to the glories of the internet, you can find Youtubes of arrogantprickishness of all colors, creeds and flavors. Youtubers that declare war on each other over just this sort of stuff. I even see agnostics and atheists fight each other over their definitions. I have to think that we must have a pretty good standard of living if people have the luxury of spending so much time on these activities. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that it solves any problems beyond how to kill time. The saddest example of this sort of endless jabbing I can think of is in India and Pakistan. I read English speaking websites of the region and we have endless cycles of someone leaving a dead pig at a mosque, someone retaliating with a dead cow at a Hindu temple, etc., petty, vicious, pointless, stupid, unproductive...arrogantprickishness. And these are ancient religious cultures.

[_Jersey Girl]

Fool me once...

Yeah - that and I would imagine that atheism provides a soft spot to land in - and live in. But what do I know, I'm not an exM0 or an atheist.

Peace,
Ceeboo

How could atheism provide a soft spot to land in? Will you explain your thinking on that?

[_Ceeboo]

Hi Jersey Girl!

How could atheism provide a soft spot to land in? Will you explain your thinking on that?

Someone leaves a faith community like Mormonism - one that is very demanding, very structured, very time consuming, etc - They are quite possibly experiencing a wide range of deep emotions and thoughts (anger, hurt, fear, turmoil, pain, confusion, etc) and they are also potentially dealing with strained relationships involving loved ones.

So are these folks heading over to the Catholic Church to sign up? Are they stopping by the Lutheran Church to investigate? I don't think so!

In my mind, it makes some sense to consider and/or understand why atheism would be a safe destination for some to land in. But, what do I know, I'm a not an ex-Mo or an atheist so I could be just randomly spewing verbal diarrhea.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Meadowchik]

As someone leaning toward atheism a year after leaving Mormonism, it is because of authority. It's not just that men are fallible and make mistakes, it's the sheer spiritual violence of one person telling another that they stand between them and god. It is ridiculous. Most rational people would not allow this, if not for the time, tradition, and culture that has aggregated over generations, mythologizing the person and their claims.

If a stranger walks up to you and says, "Come with me, I have a message for you from god. If you don't do what I say you will die," how would you respond?

I also wrote a metaphor for it:

In your city's center square, there is a concrete block the size of an operating table. You've been having sharp pains in your side for days, so you head over. Before lying down, you write on the whiteboard; you list your symptoms, name, age, medical history, and sign consent. There is a small machine vending pills and you take one with a free glass of mineral water. Now you lie down on the table, allowing it to mechanically restrain your your ankles, chest, wrists, and forehead. You count backwards from 100, and at 91 you feel yourself fading. All goes black.

Next step: The other side of the board has been read by most adults in town and some children, it states the purpose of the table, it describes the instruments and chemicals available for use, imploring the thorough consultation of the touchscreen for diagnosing and treating the sedated patient. It invites volunteers to use the tools, drugs, and internet.

The pill you took can knock you out for twelve hours, good luck.

[_Jersey Girl]

Hi Jersey Girl!

How could atheism provide a soft spot to land in? Will you explain your thinking on that?

Someone leaves a faith community like Mormonism - one that is very demanding, very structured, very time consuming, etc - They are quite possibly experiencing a wide range of deep emotions and thoughts (anger, hurt, fear, turmoil, pain, confusion, etc) and they are also potentially dealing with strained relationships involving loved ones.

So are these folks heading over to the Catholic Church to sign up? Are they stopping by the Lutheran Church to investigate? I don't think so!

In my mind, it makes some sense to consider and/or understand why atheism would be a safe destination for some to land in. But, what do I know, I'm a not an ex-Mo or an atheist so I could be just randomly spewing verbal diarrhea.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Thanks, Ceebs. I think what you're saying is that atheism can be viewed as a kind of neutral zone.

I think that all of this is far more complex and subjective to the individual than we can ever do justice to on one thread alone or even a hundred threads of this type. Let me list two ways in which I disagree with you.

I have to wonder, if in the minds of the still believing LDS family, they might not view a shift to say, Catholicism, as the better choice because the disaffected LDS family member retains a belief in God. They might see that person as more "reachable". Considering LDS doctrine, there is never a situation when all hope is lost because the belief system contains an after-death workaround for that.

I think more to the point is that the person who has felt betrayed, lied to, etc., has become so fried on religion in general that they might not choose to investigate another church. Of course Aristotle's comments and data would suggest otherwise for the majority.

With regard to atheism in general. I can't know the mind of every atheist, however, but I don't see atheism as a choice. I see it as a progressive falling away of god belief in general until there is no God belief left at all. Atheism is a lack of belief in God. I don't see that as choosing a soft place to land. I see it as God disappearing from the world view and mind of the disbeliever.

Thanks for answering my question and talking about it! I might have more to say later...

[_Jersey Girl]

Ceeboo one more quick thought to share and for the purpose of this, I'm going to keep it simple.

You listed these: anger, hurt, fear, turmoil, pain, confusion, etc

And I mentioned a sense of betrayal.

We need to be mindful that these emotional states are not exclusive to the disaffected member, but can also be experienced by the believing family.

That's quite the psychological and emotional earthquake for the whole family to try to navigate, much less survive.

I suppose a lot of it has to do with each individual family member and their relationship to the church as well as the nature of their own belief.

In Christianity, you know, we talk about being lukewarm. If the nature of the religion in the entire family is lukewarm, then probably not so much of a problem. If the overall nature is on fire?

You've got big trouble and you've got it in spades.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Jersey Girl!

Really good posts/points. I appreciate you sharing.

I don't really have anything to add - so I wont force it.

Peace,
Ceeboo