Josh and Lolly Weed getting divorced

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_I have a question
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Re: Josh and Lolly Weed getting divorced

Post by _I have a question »

candygal wrote:Gosh,I am so jealous of all of you who have partners...lonesome is as lonesome does.


You’re only jealous because you think those relationships are better than being single. That’s not always the case. I have had relationships where I’d have been much better off not having them and being single. I learned that if I was happy with my own company, happy with who I was, I didn’t actually need a relationship with someone else to live a happy life. Once I reached that point, where I wasn’t looking for a relationship, guess what...some good ones just happened to come along.

I’m actually sometimes jealous of people who have only themselves to consider. Grass, greener etc.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Josh and Lolly Weed getting divorced

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Man, between RI, Philo, and Beastie we've got some really great posts in short order.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Shulem
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Re: Josh and Lolly Weed getting divorced

Post by _Shulem »

beastie wrote:I hate the LDS church for this, probably more than for any of their other sins.


Me too.
_cwald
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Re: Josh and Lolly Weed getting divorced

Post by _cwald »

beastie wrote:I have to comment on this,
...
I hate the LDS church for this, probably more than for any of their other sins.


This was a fantastic post.

A great testament of the perils of organized religion, especially the LDS church.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_candygal
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Re: Josh and Lolly Weed getting divorced

Post by _candygal »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Man, between RI, Philo, and Beastie we've got some really great posts in short order.

- Doc

I so agree. Amazing strong people on this board who have lived a certain hell to come around to real life and the possibilities of great love.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Josh and Lolly Weed getting divorced

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Meadowchik wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Meadowchick, thanks for expanding on the “math” topic. Having read that, I don’t think the issue is the math. What I read your original statement, I thought you were saying that the simple existence of homosexual individuals increased the opportunity for coupling. Reading your last post, I understand you as saying that acceptance of homosexuality increases the opportunity for coupling for homosexual folks in the population. Every one’s math was fine — they just were doing different problems.


I think the mathematical problem would possibly fit, more specifically, into a topological problem. Once that is understood the statistical model becomes more clear. It has been a while since I studied topological models, though.

Yes, the existence of homosexual individuals increased the opportunity for coupling. It is probably easier understood from an economic perspective, though:

Because homosexuals exist and would by definition find non-homosexual coupling less tolerable, they were more likely to be willing to pay the social price for homosexual coupling. Once same-sex coupling becomes more normalized (by those who can live without it the least,) the social cost of same-sex coupling reduces for others. Therefore bisexuals, pansexuals, and others may be more able to afford that social cost of same-sex pairing, thus their social choices have increased.

And of course such models can also be used to describe the social cost of changing gender roles as well, where the existence of homosexuals again benefits people other than homosexuals. As a woman, I think that the existence of gays have benefited me by being a significant force in society's expanded notions of gender roles.


Well, you've got me thoroughly confused at this point. I don't see any need for a topological model. I think it's a fairly straightforward problem in combinations. I'm not sure of the exact formula that applies, but could probably figure it out by googling for a bit. Here's what I mean:

Assume to populations, P1 and P2. Both populations total 100 persons, half male and half female.

P1 is composed entirely of people who will only couple with a person of the opposite sex. Now, pick a person in P1 and call him Res Ipsa. Res Ipsa has 50 different people that he can couple with. If I knew the right formula, I could calculate the total number of possible combinations in the set. But I don't think I have to do that calculation.

P2, on the other hand, has two types of folks. T1 will only couple with someone of the opposite sex, just as in P1. T2 will only couple with someone of the same sex. 90% of folks are T1 and 10% are T2. If Res Ipsa is T1, he will have only 40 different people he can couple with. If Res Ipsa is T2, he will have only 9 other people he can couple with. In either case, Res Ipsa in P2 will have fewer available combination for coupling than Res Ipsa in P1. That being the case, I can't see how it could be mathematically possible for the total combinations available in P2 to be greater than in P1. Therefore, the mere existence of homosexuality does not, in and of itself, does not increase the possible number of couplings.

What you seem to be comparing are worlds in which homosexuality is not socially accepted with those in which it is socially accepted. But in both of your worlds, homosexual persons exist. Therefore, you are not testing the effect of the existence of homosexuality.

Can you show me where I'm off track?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Meadowchik
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Re: Josh and Lolly Weed getting divorced

Post by _Meadowchik »

cwald wrote:
beastie wrote:I have to comment on this,
...
I hate the LDS church for this, probably more than for any of their other sins.


This was a fantastic post.

A great testament of the perils of organized religion, especially the LDS church.


Thank you to Beastie for taking the time to tell your story.
_Meadowchik
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Re: Josh and Lolly Weed getting divorced

Post by _Meadowchik »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Well, you've got me thoroughly confused at this point. I don't see any need for a topological model. I think it's a fairly straightforward problem in combinations. I'm not sure of the exact formula that applies, but could probably figure it out by googling for a bit. Here's what I mean:

Assume to populations, P1 and P2. Both populations total 100 persons, half male and half female.

P1 is composed entirely of people who will only couple with a person of the opposite sex. Now, pick a person in P1 and call him Res Ipsa. Res Ipsa has 50 different people that he can couple with. If I knew the right formula, I could calculate the total number of possible combinations in the set. But I don't think I have to do that calculation.

P2, on the other hand, has two types of folks. T1 will only couple with someone of the opposite sex, just as in P1. T2 will only couple with someone of the same sex. 90% of folks are T1 and 10% are T2. If Res Ipsa is T1, he will have only 40 different people he can couple with. If Res Ipsa is T2, he will have only 9 other people he can couple with. In either case, Res Ipsa in P2 will have fewer available combination for coupling than Res Ipsa in P1. That being the case, I can't see how it could be mathematically possible for the total combinations available in P2 to be greater than in P1. Therefore, the mere existence of homosexuality does not, in and of itself, does not increase the possible number of couplings.

What you seem to be comparing are worlds in which homosexuality is not socially accepted with those in which it is socially accepted. But in both of your worlds, homosexual persons exist. Therefore, you are not testing the effect of the existence of homosexuality.

Can you show me where I'm off track?


Consider two populations, both include the norm, heterosexuals, and both include non-straight folks. Yet only the latter population includes homosexuals. Homosexuality is distinguished because it is less compatible with the hetero norm than bisexuality or any other orientation that allows the attractability of different-sex partners.

Heterosexuality is the norm in both populations, and there is a prohibitive social cost to go against that norm. In the first population, there are no homosexuals, there is no one whose only attractive option is prohibited. In the latter population, the homosexuals are pressured to suppress their sexuality, but because same-sex pairings are their only attractive option, some choose it despite the prohibitive social cost.

The act of choosing the only attractive pairing option, contributes to the social normalization of same-sex pairings, making their social cost less prohibitive. Thus the social cost of same-sex pairings is reduced for everyone else in the latter population. But not in the first.

It is is the existence of such an exclusive sexual orientation that drives the ability of more members of a population to have more pairing options.

I think your problems focus more on amounts than on the path that is made clear by the existence of homosexuals. The function of that "path" is where topology comes in.
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