Chance, Determinism and Free Will

[_RockSlider]

In my listening to some discussions involving Sam Harris and Lawrence Krauss, there have been a couple times they mentioned they did not hold to the idea that there is any 'Free Will'. I finally looked up what in the world they were talking about, as Free Will is so fundamental to our (Mormons, Christians) worldview, I could not image what in the world they were referencing.

Sam Harris - The Case Against Free Will The first 35 minutes is his presentation, the remainder an interview. If nothing else, consider listening to the segment from 0:10:10 to 0:11:40 for an example. His example of the bear vs. the man with an axe is also very interesting.

For those with a shorter video/audio attention span, a briefer summary

Sam Harris on the Illusion of Free Will

What say ye?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'm watching the fist video right now starting at your timestamp. You know. I think a lot of people have been trying to nail down where conscious emergence begins and at what point do we take ownership over our behavior. I don't know if I have anything else to add at this moment, but I'll watch the videos. I'm a fan of Sam Harris so he has my attention right now.

- Doc

[_Jesse Pinkman]

I enjoy Sam Harris, as well. I don't have time to watch the videos at the moment, but will let you know my impressions once I do.

Rock, are there any articles that he has written on this topic that might be worth referring to as well?

[_RockSlider]

I enjoy Sam Harris, as well. I don't have time to watch the videos at the moment, but will let you know my impressions once I do.

Rock, are there any articles that he has written on this topic that might be worth referring to as well?

Like most any of these well known authors "interveiws/presentations" they are about one of their books:

https://www.amazon.com/Free-Will-Sam-Ha ... 1451683405

[_Gadianton]

In my listening to some discussions involving Sam Harris and Lawrence Krauss, there have been a couple times they mentioned they did not hold to the idea that there is any 'Free Will'. I finally looked up what in the world they were talking about, as Free Will is so fundamental to our (Mormons, Christians) worldview, I could not image what in the world they were referencing.

Free Will is not fundamental to the Christian worldview, some believe it and some don't. The kind of determinism that the New Atheists believe in was arrived at first by the Calvinist theologian Jonathan Edwards, who was trying to justify punishing sinners who are predetermined for hell by God.

[_RockSlider]

Free Will is not fundamental to the Christian worldview, some believe it and some don't. The kind of determinism that the New Atheists believe in was arrived at first by the Calvinist theologian Jonathan Edwards, who was trying to justify punishing sinners who are predetermined for hell by God.

Coming out of one's bubble can be a very slow process. And my listening to Krauss, Harris, Dillahunty, Dawkins, Dennet etc. has introduced me to whole new sets of previously never considered concepts. Please overlook my ignorance.

[Guest]

In my listening to some discussions involving Sam Harris and Lawrence Krauss, there have been a couple times they mentioned they did not hold to the idea that there is any 'Free Will'. I finally looked up what in the world they were talking about, as Free Will is so fundamental to our (Mormons, Christians) worldview, I could not image what in the world they were referencing.

Free Will is not fundamental to the Christian worldview, some believe it and some don't. The kind of determinism that the New Atheists believe in was arrived at first by the Calvinist theologian Jonathan Edwards, who was trying to justify punishing sinners who are predetermined for hell by God.

Hoping to clarify a bit, determinism was standard Christian theology a thousand years before Jonathan Edwards.Though not universally accepted it has been the majority view .Edwards may present arguments with a more scientific cast of thought than would a medieval scholastic but it is the same determinism linked to predestination. Luther and Calvin thought it was important to make sure people thought about the determinism because it underlines peoples dependence upon God. I am fairly sure Edwards would have seen the purpose in the same way. From what I have read of him he was concerned that people turn to God to avoid the punishment which sin obviously deserves.

Edwards was of a turn of mind from which I doubt that it would ever occur to him to think hell needed justification.

,,,,,,,,,,,,
second thought this morning,
Sorry Gadianton I have prematurely discarded your observation about a possible intention to explain people being punished if predetermined in their character. My second thought this morning is that you may be correct about that intention.

[_RockSlider]

When the likes of Dennett, Krauss, Dillahunty and Harris can argue/disagree for hours over this topic, there is obviously a lot to think about here.


Dennett and Harris had a bit of a falling out over their differing thoughts. Krauss tending to side with Harris, Dillahunty with Dennett.

Anyway, a new concept for me:

Compatibilism

[_MrStakhanovite]

I'm a determinist and an incompatibilist.

[_Choyo Chagas]

I'm a determinist and an incompatibilist.

The concepts You listed are not determined exactly; moreover they are incompatible - at least for me. Call me stupid; nemo me impune lacessit.

by the way
I could never ever make a difference of "free will" and "free agency". Is there any difference?

When I read or hear the word "agency", I associate to CIA...