What is an anti-Mormon?

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_moksha
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _moksha »

Niadna wrote:Not one of you have addressed the actual point of what I was attempting to say; that "anti" is about words and deeds, not feelings or motivations. Being an 'anti' rather than a 'critic' is about how one objects to something, not whether one does, or even what one objects to.

Excellent point. It is like when you open up the refrigerator at Jeffrey Dahmer's house to grab a cold one and see a severed head, and then wonder if he is gluten intolerant.


Not one of you has addressed that; you have been far too busy insulting my character, my intelligence, and even my internet grammar.

Sorry if some of my fellow posters have been in a feeding frenzy. I hope you can forgive them and continue posting here.
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_Meadowchik
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Meadowchik »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:That's gross, Shulem. Can you maybe not blame victims please?

Hi Meadowchik,

I'm pretty sure this is Shulem's way of showing Niadna how she came across in her original post of, "These are the names I'm going to call you, and these are the reasons why you will have caused me to call you them."


And that was me asking him not to do that.
_Physics Guy
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Physics Guy »

I think people were a little hard on Niadna, pouncing on innocent bits of miscommunication, for which both sides were at fault, as if they were major intellectual failings on Niadna's part.

To pick the first concrete example that I see scrolling back, grindael mentioned that Smith pled guilty to assaulting this one guy, and then added that Smith also assaulted this other guy, Calvin Stoddard. There followed a long quoted excerpt from Smith's trial for the Stoddard assault, and a final sentence suggesting that the assault might have led to Stoddard's early death.

So okay, what grindael actually said was that the assault proven in court was on the first guy, not Stoddard. And the fact that Smith was indeed convicted (on a guilty plea) of a felony was absolutely a cogent and relevant point for grindael to make at that stage in the discussion.

Most of grindael's post, though, was about the Stoddard case—for which Smith was acquitted. The acquittal made the Stoddard case a poor example for the point grindael was making. If you already believe (as I do) that Joseph Smith was a nasty guy, then it's natural to want to tell poor Stoddard's story after all these decades. Quoting at length about a charge on which Smith was acquitted is a confusing way to discuss Smith's criminal record with a Mormon, however.

Niadna jumped on grindael's apparent overlooking of the fact clearly stated in his own quote, that Smith was acquitted for Stoddard. Yes, Niadna could ideally have said something more like, "I see that Smith was acquitted of assaulting Stoddard, but I take your point that he pled guilty to assaulting [the other guy]." Instead Niadna focused on the longish quote about Stoddard and ignored the other guy. That was not perfect close reading on Niadna's part. It was hardly mindless negligence, either, though. grindael's post was confusing, giving most of its space to a red herring case that didn't really support grindael's point. If we're going to expect Niadna to see past that kind of distraction, then it seems to me we could equally well expect grindael not to post so confusingly. Bringing up Stoddard at that point was bad argumentative writing.

I am NOT blaming grindael for that. Nobody here is getting paid for this. We can all do our best to be clear, but nobody has time to re-edit each post to academic journal standards. Sheesh. Sometimes we're all going to express some things awkwardly. It will be noticed, for example, that I have not taken the time to go back and look up the name of the guy to whose assault Smith pled guilty. I'm sorry for that, but not much. Life is short.

My point is that since we should indeed cut people slack for not expressing themselves in the most perfectly transparent way all the time, we should also cut people slack for not following every argument perfectly. In this case I don't think it was fair to snap at Niadna for failure to contextualize. A better response, to my mind, would have been something more like, "Yeah, the Stoddard story was kind of me getting carried away with historical outrage. My real point was the other guy—over him, Smith pled guilty."

I'm sorry to single out grindael like this. It's not really appropriate; grindael's posts actually stand out for how substantial they are and I'm always interested to read them. Having pled for slack over poor communication in general, I'll have to try to claim the principle now myself. There was surely a better way for me to make this point, without unfairly spotlighting grindael; besides being more polite, the better way would have made the point more clearly without the distraction of personal criticism. I failed to find that better way in the time that I had, but the point still seemed worth making, even if I could only make it badly, so I hit Submit. For that, I plead guilty to bad argumentative writing myself, in this post. Sorry, grindael.
_Lemmie
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Lemmie »

I'm sorry to single out grindael like this. It's not really appropriate; grindael's posts actually stand out for how substantial they are and I'm always interested to read them. Having pled for slack over poor communication in general, I'll have to try to claim the principle now myself. There was surely a better way for me to make this point, without unfairly spotlighting grindael; besides being more polite, the better way would have made the point more clearly without the distraction of personal criticism. I failed to find that better way in the time that I had, but the point still seemed worth making, even if I could only make it badly, so I hit Submit. For that, I plead guilty to bad argumentative writing myself, in this post. Sorry, grindael.

It is an interesting point, but in 'spotlighting grindael,' and his post about Stoddard, you actually did make your point very badly, :lol: as in, you are wrong to point to grindael's post as an example of what you are arguing.

A bit further back in the conversation, naidna argues this:
...and narrowing down the conversation without bringing in examples that are pertinent is called contextomy.

While your point is a good one when discussing things that are far apart in time or type, like, oh, pointing out that it might be possible to excuse the twin tower bombings because of the crusades, talking about one press destruction in the context of another one that happened a decade previously in an ongoing atmosphere of antagonism ... would be 'context.'


In response, fencesitter asked this:
But let's say you have a point that the depredations over the years against the Mormons have to be included when talking about Nauvoo and failure to do so is a sign of hypocrisy

This arose because naidna made an argument, in the midst of all this 'context,' that because Joseph Smith wasn't "convicted" of anything, he didn't "need to be pardoned" for anything.

Talk about lack of context. :rolleyes:

Whhich brings us to grindael's post you are referring to. Grindael brings in two examples of the same behavior, one that resulted in a conviction, and one that did not, and shows quite convincingly that the behavior itself is more relevant and provides more context than just arguing that the isolated vagaries and inconsistencies of a legal system prove anything.
Quoting at length about a charge on which Smith was acquitted is a confusing way to discuss Smith's criminal record with a Mormon, however.
Not if you were following the discussion.
Instead Niadna focused on the longish quote about Stoddard and ignored the other guy.
Exactly grindael's point. Naidna argues 'context' when it suits her argument, but she ignores the 'context' when it doesn't. Grindael made his point perfectly.

I will grant you, however, that it was a long, long thread to keep up with, which would go a long way toward explaining why a single post might look confusing.

we should also cut people slack for not following every argument perfectly.
:lol: Indubitibly. May the odds ever be in our favor.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Stem
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Stem »

Physics Guy wrote:I think people were a little hard on Niadna, pouncing on innocent bits of miscommunication, for which both sides were at fault, as if they were major intellectual failings on Niadna's part.



I agree. Thanks for saying as much.

I would hope we'd have a more inviting place for anyone to participate in. I"m not saying Niadna was innocent in her behavior, but I think overall she was treated poorly. I don't blame her for leaving, if she did. It's too bad too, because some lively back and forths coming from opposite positions can be interesting and helpful.
_Lemmie
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Lemmie »

but I think overall she was treated poorly.

If by overall, you mean by post count, I would agree. Shulem is the Energizer bunny crossed with that cat from Pet Sematary when he smells blood in the water. (And I mean that as a compliment Shulem! You are always a fun read. )

But if you mean a majority of the posters in this thread treated her poorly or even the majority of posters treated her poorly in at least one post, then I would disagree strongly.

But I will stop putting words in your mouth. What did you mean by overall?
_Stem
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Stem »

Lemmie wrote:
but I think overall she was treated poorly.

If by overall, you mean by post count, I would agree. Shulem is the Energizer bunny crossed with that cat from Pet Sematary when he smells blood in the water. (And I mean that as a compliment Shulem! You are always a fun read. )

But if you mean a majority of the posters in this thread treated her poorly or even the majority of posters treated her poorly in at least one post, then I would disagree strongly.

But I will stop putting words in your mouth. What did you mean by overall?


I would say in the sum. If you take the whole of the thread and try to determine what was being discussed and how it was discussed, I think she was treated poorly. That surely does not mean the majority of posters treated her poorly. I think she was new and felt like she was not welcome, as a result. I'm not saying she did herself any favors with the way she participated though.
_Lemmie
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Lemmie »

I think she was new and felt like she was not welcome, as a result. I'm not saying she did herself any favors with the way she participated though.

Agreed, but I don't think newness had anything to do with it. I took a look at her posting style over at CARM when she mentioned a thread in that forum; her style is exactly the same there as it was here.
_Xenophon
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Xenophon »

Stem wrote:
Lemmie wrote:But I will stop putting words in your mouth. What did you mean by overall?
I would say in the sum. If you take the whole of the thread and try to determine what was being discussed and how it was discussed, I think she was treated poorly. That surely does not mean the majority of posters treated her poorly. I think she was new and felt like she was not welcome, as a result. I'm not saying she did herself any favors with the way she participated though.
I'll say I've been conflicted about this thread and have purposefully stayed out of it because of this. I think there is more than enough share of problem to go around. It wasn't just Shulem's standard aggression (still love ya Paul), several other posters chimed in with the usual "troll" bit and that can begin to feel like a chorus of unwelcoming voices.

The flip side to that is of course that Niadna wanted to make a controversial first post, she also spent time engaging those more hostile posters as opposed to ignoring them and focusing her energies on those that she shares common ground with (I'm fairly certain that all of Jersey Girl's and Moksha's posts went unanswered). She set out, by her own admission, to make an inflammatory post but seemed surprised when there was push back. I have a hard time sympathizing with that position.

This is a board that, because of the free speech avenue it wants to be, doesn't really do "nice". It is a lot of what you make of it though. If you choose to focus on, engage with, and antagonize posters that are being "uncivil" than it should be no surprise when the experience is uncivil.

Edited to appease the Mountain Man
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Stem wrote:
Lemmie wrote:If by overall, you mean by post count, I would agree. Shulem is the Energizer bunny crossed with that cat from Pet Sematary when he smells blood in the water. (And I mean that as a compliment Shulem! You are always a fun read. )

But if you mean a majority of the posters in this thread treated her poorly or even the majority of posters treated her poorly in at least one post, then I would disagree strongly.

But I will stop putting words in your mouth. What did you mean by overall?


I would say in the sum. If you take the whole of the thread and try to determine what was being discussed and how it was discussed, I think she was treated poorly. That surely does not mean the majority of posters treated her poorly. I think she was new and felt like she was not welcome, as a result. I'm not saying she did herself any favors with the way she participated though.


You mean she picked a fight and others took her up on it? And then she played the victim and now you making her a martyr? You mean she generalized individual posters into a group, couldn't keep track of individual themes within the thread, declared herself bullied, and you're reinforcing the Mormon victimology routine?

Puh-lease...

- Doc
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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