What is an anti-Mormon?

[_Polygamy-Porter]

I myself find it hard to find anyone who I would consider anti Mormon.

Funny. I don't have any problems at all finding 'em.

I mean, when someone writes that I (and every other Mormon) is a Satanist who murders infants in occultic rituals in the Temples, or that we are greedy, power-hungry and selfish...oh, just think of an insult and I've been called that...yeah. That person is an anti.

WHAT?

Where do you live? The uneducated, baptist, deep south?

All of the years as a Mormon, I never was accused of murdering babies.

Funny handshakes at the international house of handshakes, sure, but killing babies? No.

I am sure you would find similar results among Mormons.

Y'know, you are quite right. I don't find many anti-Mormons among Mormons.

Is that what you meant to say????

NO.

Mormon members will vary in how they view so-called anti-mormons.

I guess it boils down to how we make each Mormon feel, as well as how they feel about their own belief and activity level.

for what it's worth, I love it when a believing member and/or defender of Mormonism labels me an anti Mormon

So. ARE you? Where would you put yourself on that spectrum?

I always go out of my way to teach any and all Mormons the truth about their church. IT IS DEMONSTRABLY FALSE.

In your eyes as a member, does that make me an anti-mormon?

What is your level of TBM? (True Believing Mormon)
Jack
Social
Rabid
Nazi

Clarify, please... Are you a Mormon beast who is very mean? When/If attacked, will you fight back??

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Here's an example from another forum that might illustrate this: (not a specific example, but an ongoing meme)

Critic: Joseph Smith had many wives, including two fourteen year olds. I think that polygamy is wrong, not condoned by God, and illustrates his unfitness to call himself a prophet. (as you can see, the classification 'critic' can include some very strong opinions...;) )

Anti: Joseph Smith was a pedophile and a sex pervert, and Satan probably told him to get as many women pregnant as he could. He was ALSO a traitor.

Extreme anti: He deserved what he got when the mob, disgusted by his going after young girls, shot him. I wish I had been one of them...and if a Mormon talks to MY daughter, I'll shoot him right where it would do the most good (this last was a very real threat by a very real person, by the way...not exaggerating a bit here).

As I mentioned, I don't think the 'lines' between the groups are all that broad or vague.

How do you feel about Warren Jeffs?

[_Niadna]

Funny. I don't have any problems at all finding 'em.

I mean, when someone writes that I (and every other Mormon) is a Satanist who murders infants in occultic rituals in the Temples, or that we are greedy, power-hungry and selfish...oh, just think of an insult and I've been called that...yeah. That person is an anti.

WHAT?

Where do you live? The uneducated, baptist, deep south?

No. However, at least one of the people who made that accusation do. Haven't you heard of the case of 'Baby X,' whose remains were found in a town in Idaho, and was (according to these people) was OBVIOUSLY murdered in a Satanic ritual human torture/sacrifice in one of the Temples up that way?

Really. I'm not making this stuff up.

All of the years as a Mormon, I never was accused of murdering babies.

It was a first for me, too...and I'm nearly 70.

Funny handshakes at the international house of handshakes, sure, but killing babies? No.

Y'know, you are quite right. I don't find many anti-Mormons among Mormons.

Is that what you meant to say????

NO.

Mormon members will vary in how they view so-called anti-mormons.

Of course. I know some who believe that everybody who isn't Mormon is 'anti'. Granted, those have been burned by some rather interesting experiences, but I was attempting to differentiate between 'critics,' who have honest differences of opinions with us.....and those who follow Ed Decker's rule; anything goes when one is dealing with the devil Mormon church (close enough)...the 'ends justify the means' sort.

I always go out of my way to teach any and all Mormons the truth about their church. IT IS DEMONSTRABLY FALSE.

In your eyes as a member, does that make me an anti-mormon?

Not yet it doesn't.

What is your level of TBM? (True Believing Mormon)
Jack
Social
Rabid
Nazi

Define the terms, please. You have to admit that I DID that for you guys. What's the difference between 'rabid' and 'Nazi?" and why do I get the feeling that you aren't leaving any room for just...faithful and believing?

Clarify, please... Are you a Mormon beast who is very mean? When/If attacked, will you fight back??

I see that you translated my sig file. ....and that's 'defend itself,' not 'fight back.' There is, I think, a slight difference. "Defend' implies that when the attack stops, so will the defense. It also implies that one waits to be attacked before doing anything. "Fight back' implies continuing confrontation. Turning the tables. Revenge. (shrug)

I'm too lazy for that.

[_Niadna]

Here's an example from another forum that might illustrate this: (not a specific example, but an ongoing meme)

Critic: Joseph Smith had many wives, including two fourteen year olds. I think that polygamy is wrong, not condoned by God, and illustrates his unfitness to call himself a prophet. (as you can see, the classification 'critic' can include some very strong opinions...;) )

Anti: Joseph Smith was a pedophile and a sex pervert, and Satan probably told him to get as many women pregnant as he could. He was ALSO a traitor.

Extreme anti: He deserved what he got when the mob, disgusted by his going after young girls, shot him. I wish I had been one of them...and if a Mormon talks to MY daughter, I'll shoot him right where it would do the most good (this last was a very real threat by a very real person, by the way...not exaggerating a bit here).

As I mentioned, I don't think the 'lines' between the groups are all that broad or vague.

How do you feel about Warren Jeffs?

He's in prison where he belongs. Why do you ask?

Just don't get me going about that (insert any adjective you wish here: I'm a southern Idaho Mormon) raid the gov. pulled on the FLDS compound on the strength of a fraudulent phone call that the authorities KNEW was fraudulent before they sent the swat team, the snipers, the tanks, the attack dogs--

--.and all those Baptist buses to haul off the WOMEN AND CHILDREN to put THEM in detention centers, leaving the men (you know, the alleged perpetrators) back at the compound.

Writing about that was actually the paper that got me one of my degrees. I watched as it happened, reported on it and followed the legal shenanigans. It began as a paper about the fall of the Warren 'cult,' showing how they all got justice. It ended up exposing something, all right...but it wasn't the FLDS folks. Texas really screwed up.

They really shouldn't have used those Baptist buses.

Oh.
Sorry.

It's late, I'm tired and loopy, and I really HATE it when someone tries building a strawman argument here.

Warren Jeffs may be a Mormon, but he is NOT a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, which hasn't practiced polygamy for over a hundred years.

It is not logical to blame the belief system for the actions of someone who breaks its rules, and it's even less logical to blame a belief system for the actions of someone who doesn't belong to it in the first place.

[_Physics Guy]

Critic: Joseph Smith had many wives, including two fourteen year olds. I think that polygamy is wrong, not condoned by God, and illustrates his unfitness to call himself a prophet.
Anti: Joseph Smith was a pedophile and a sex pervert, and Satan probably told him to get as many women pregnant as he could. He was ALSO a traitor.

Those seem like extreme examples. Where's the line in between? Is it Satan and treason? Or is it whether one's reaction to the wholesale polygamy goes beyond gentle Tut-tutting about flaws versus unfitness?

What if I don't not consider Smith a Satanist, traitor, or pedophile, but would call him a con artist sexual predator? Does that make me an Anti or can I stay as a Critic?

[Guest]

Critic: Joseph Smith had many wives, including two fourteen year olds. I think that polygamy is wrong, not condoned by God, and illustrates his unfitness to call himself a prophet.
Anti: Joseph Smith was a pedophile and a sex pervert, and Satan probably told him to get as many women pregnant as he could. He was ALSO a traitor.

Those seem like extreme examples. Where's the line in between? Is it Satan and treason? Or is it whether one's reaction to the wholesale polygamy goes beyond gentle Tut-tutting about flaws versus unfitness?

What if I don't not consider Smith a Satanist, traitor, or pedophile, but would call him a con artist sexual predator? Does that make me an Anti or can I stay as a Critic?

If you support your accusations with evidence, you are a critic. If all you do is call names, you are an anti. At least in my view.

Especially when those accusations are matters of opinion. "con artist?" only if one does not believe that he was a prophet who received actual revelations...which makes the 'con artist' thing a begging of the question. A better approach would be to claim that he was NOT a prophet, and provide the evidence for that. If you are correct about that, then the result would be yeah, he was a 'con-artist.' Or insane. One of those.

As for 'sexual predator,' yeah, that's 'anti' territory. He was a polygamist. A whole bunch of people and cultures have been polygamous without those people being 'sexual predators."

Calling him THAT is historians bias; judging him by today's laws and standards...and just as a by the way, polygamists today are not automatically described as 'sexual predators,' and quite frankly, there isn't a whole lot of evidence that Joseph Smith was that.

Polygamist with all the problems that come with THAT? Certainly.

"sexual predator?"

That's a deliberate choice of words for the purpose of insult. It's an ad hominem, and where did I draw that line, again?

[_Stem]

If you support your accusations with evidence, you are a critic. If all you do is call names, you are an anti. At least in my view.

So all Mormons are antis then? I don't see many supporting with evidence.

[_huckelberry]

Polygamy Porter, I think people who accuse Mormons of baby killing are quite uncommon. Real life examples do exist it appears. Consider the link starting the thread ,"Kishs evil lizard underbelly". It is a presentation by some fellow who believes he has become an expert on Mormon stuff. The second half wanders into a expose of human sacrifice in the temple subbasement and suchlike stuff .

Thread in question is on page two here.

[_Niadna]

Polygamy Porter, I think people who accuse Mormons of baby killing are quite uncommon.

I'd say that. I honestly have never run into it before a few months ago.

[_Niadna]

If you support your accusations with evidence, you are a critic. If all you do is call names, you are an anti. At least in my view.

So all Mormons are antis then? I don't see many supporting with evidence.

Anti what?

What belief system are they attacking? What religion are they misrepresenting, insulting, etc.,?

Because I do NOT see Mormons in forums devoted to the discussion of, say, Anglicanism or Presbyterianism or Jehovah's Witnesses or Catholicism spending their days attempting to 'debunk the cult."

To me, 'anti' (and 'critic,' for that matter) only applies to those who actively pursue the target belief system. In the case of the internet and debate forums, 'antis' (and that's 'anti' pretty much anything) go to the forums dedicated to the discussion of the belief system they are 'anti,' arm up and start shooting. Metaphorically, of course.

So what would the defenders BE against? "Anti'ism?" So someone in a Catholicism forum who is attacked by an anti-Catholic, and who responds in kind, is now 'anti-anti-Catholic?"

So a Mormon in here who gets annoyed at having his beliefs, leaders and history insulted, and who responds...is s/he now an 'anti-anti-Mormon?" How many 'anti's' can we apply here...someone who claims that a Mormon is being mean when s/he responds sharply to an attack...is HE an 'anti-anti-anti-Mormon?

No, you'll have to tell me what the Mormons in a forum dedicated to the discussion of Mormonism IS 'anti,' when they are defending against attacks.

..........Now me, I'll admit that I verge on the line of being anti-Calvinism, since my opinion of that particular belief is, er, very low. I TRY to be polite even there, though. Don't always make it, and I do get testy when others start getting really insulting (I've been thrown off of CARM a LOT), but I do try.

And you won't find me in any Calvinist debate forum going after them in there. I only have something to say when they come into a Mormonism forum and start spouting off.