What is an anti-Mormon?

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_Fence Sitter
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

moksha wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Cinepro has posted here for years without complaining about the culture here.

It's not so bad, as long as we consider soup to be finger food.


For the record, Res Ipsa did not say this about Cinepro, I did.

Now if we could only find a mod who could fix this sort of thing.
:lol: :lol:
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_moksha
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _moksha »

Fence Sitter wrote:For the record, Res Ipsa did not say this about Cinepro, I did.

Ah, what tangled misattribution we weave when an earlier poster first flubs his HTML notations.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Water Dog wrote:My first impression of Niadna was that she's just TBM immature and figured it would go this way. Was a waste of time to try engaging. Anybody who shows up here has to go through the initiation ritual. I went through it, and I've seen many others go through it. If you can't handle it, you don't belong here. Even after things settle down, there is a certain intensity that prevails. That's just the board culture. If you can't handle the initiation, you simply won't be able to hold your own in discussions long-term. Particularly if you're in the minority view on a subject. Making matters worse she was bringing it on herself by going on the offensive the way she did. I still am perplexed about her rantings against Christians/Evangelicals. Not sure what this had to do with anything. I'm not sure what the point of this thread even was.


She reminds me of Meg Stout.
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_Maksutov
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Maksutov »

Xenophon wrote:She set out, by her own admission, to make an inflammatory post but seemed surprised when there was push back. I have a hard time sympathizing with that position.

This is a board that, because of the free speech avenue it wants to be, doesn't really do "nice". It is a lot of what you make of it though.


This.

She came on by labeling people rather than engaging them. If she ran into a buzz saw, she did the running. If she's really interested in the issues and not just chickensheet drivebys she will stay around. Zerinus was also a big man on CARM (his story) and we went through his version of the same silliness. It becomes difficult to strike a balance between exhausted cynicism and welcoming openness, in my opinion.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_grindael
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _grindael »

I think you are laboring under a false impression that there are two accounts here. There are not, only one, written by John Taylor in 1856. See here, http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... t-1844/426

It is not known were your "second account" came from, but I suspect it was written by G.A.S. and originally it was crossed out, but then they used it anyway, I think because what Taylor gave them was not sufficient.

John Taylor was extremely biased and jaded about the experience (and I can't blame him for being jaded). Here is what Taylor wrote in 1856: (from the link above):

“Joseph Smith. Furthermore, in relation to the press, you say that you differ from me in opinion; be it so, the thing after all is only a legal difficulty and the courts I should judge competent to decide on that matter. If our act was illegal we are willing to meet it and although I cannot see the distinction that you draw about the acts of the City Council, and what difference it could have made in point of fact, law or justice, between the City Council’s acting together or separate, or how much more legal it would have been for the Municipal Court, who were a part of the City Council, to act separate, instead of with the Councilors. Yet if it is deemed that we did a wrong, in destroying that press, we refuse not to pay for it, we are desirous to fulfil the law in every particular, and are responsible for our acts. You say that the parties ought to have had a hearing. Had it been a civil suit, this of course, would have been proper, but there was a flagrant violation of every principle of right; a nuisance; and it was abated on the same principle that any nuisance, stench or putrified carcase would have been removed. Our first step therefore was to stop the foul noisome, filthy sheet, and then the next, in our opinion, would have been to have prosecuted the man for a breach of public decency. And furthermore, again let me say, Governor Ford, I shall look to you for our protection. I believe you are talking of going to Nauvoo; if you go, Sir, I wish to go along. I refuse not to answer any law, but I do not consider myself safe here.


Notice here, that Taylor doesn't have Joseph say he would pay for the damages, only that they would abide by what a court would decide. Joseph didn't just offer to pay for the damages, that was and still is my point. And Joseph scoffs at the notion that the City Council acted in any way improperly. Why would he offer to pay, when he didn't believe he had done anything wrong? Here is the original, of your second quote, and notice it was crossed out: http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... t-1844/168

The Governor, in company with Col. Geddes arrived at the Jail when Joseph stated to them the origin of the difficulty, the facts relating to the “Expositor Press”, the course pursued by the City Council; the legality as they thought, of their legislation;— the pledges that he had made by letter and sent by expresses to his Excellency, that he was willing to satisfy all legal claims in case it should be shown that the City Council had transcended their legal bounds &c; [p. 162] <​See Taylor’s pge 39​> and that the Legion had been called out for the protection of the City, while it was threatened with immediate hostilities by an infuriated mob, until his Excellency could afford relief, and not for the purpose of invasion. The Governor seemed to be satisfied that this was the truth, but still he did not interfere in their illegal imprisonment. Joseph adverted to all the leading causes which gave rise to the difficulties under consideration in a brief, but lucid, energetic and impressive manner. The Governor said he was satisfied it was the truth. General Smith then read copies of the orders and proceedings of the City Council of Nauvoo, concerning the destruction of the “Expositor Press,” and of the correspondence forwarded to his Excellency, in relation thereto; and also informed him concerning the calling out of the Legion, and the position they occupied of absolute necessity,— not to make war upon, or invade the rights of any portion of the citizens of the State; but it was the last resort, and only defence, in the absence of executive protection, against a large, organized military and mobocratic foe. General Smith reminded his Excellency that the question in dispute was a civil matter, and to settle which needed no resort to arms, and that he was ready at any time, and had aways been ready to answer any charge that might be preferred against him, either as the Lieut. General of the Legion, the Mayor of the City, or as a private individual, in any court of Justice, <​which​> was unintimimadated by a mob or military array; and make all the satisfaction that the law required, if any &c. The Governor said he had not called out this force; [HC 6:577] but found it assembled in military array, without his orders, on his arrival in Carthage; and that the laws must be enforced, but that the prisoners must and should be protected. <​and he again pledged his word, and the faith & honor of the State that they should be protected.​> He also stated that he intended to march his forces (that is, those who had assembled for mobocratic purposes; and whom he had mustered into his service) to Nauvoo, to gratify them, and that the prisoners should accompany them, and then return again to attend the trial before the said magistrate, which he said had been postponed for the purpose of making this visit. -[[John] Fullmer]- Joseph alluded to the coming of Constable [David] Bettisworth when he gave himself up, also to his offer to go before “any other Justice of the Peace.” and called upon some twenty bystanders to witness that he submitted to the writ, but for fear of his life if he went to Carthage he had preferred to go before Esq. Daniel H. Wells, a gentleman of high legal attainments, who is in no way connected with the Mormon Church.
[1 line blank]
go on prairie to Appenoose,
[1 line blank]
Habeas Corpus
[1 line blank]
that he had sent frequent expresses and letters to the Governor; that Dr. J. R. Wakefield, Dr J[ohn] M. Bernhisel and Mr. Sidney Rigdon also had written letters to the Governor; that he had written another letter to the Governor which was sent on the 15th June by Mr [Samuel] James; that he had written again on the 16th. June, enclosing affidavits, and sent them by Messrs. Edward Hunter, Philip B. Lewis and John Bills. He also read Capt. [George] Anderson’s certificate of the proceedings of the Mob at Warsaw; also his Proclamation, his orders as Lieunenant General to Major General [Jonathan] Dunham, the proceedings of the City Council of Nauvoo, and [p. 163] <​June 26​> copies of communications forwarded to Springfield; also his letter of the 21st June <​which​> was sent by Dr. Bernhisel and Mr John Taylor, and his letter of the 22nd, which was sent by Lucien Woodworth and ’Squire [James] Woods.
Marshall John P. Greene explained about giving passes to persons going in and out of the City, and denied that any arrests had been made.
Marshalled the Legion
had no power any thing further
brought here
Governor
acted on the State of the Habeas Corpus, and referred to the trial before Esq. Wells, which did not satisfy the feelings of the people in and about Carthage. The Governor admitted that sufficient time had not been allowed by the posse for the Defendants to get ready or to gather their witnesses, and it can be very safely admitted that your statements are true, and was satisfied now that the people of Nauvoo had acted according to the best of their judgment.
Mr Reid said that it was very evident from the excitement created by Mr Smith’s enemies it would have been unsafe for him to come to Carthage, for under such circumstances he could not have had an impartial trial. [HC 6:578]
The Governor said he came here to enforce the laws on all the people whether Mormons or not; and then expressed his feelings about the destruction of the “Expositor Press.”
Joseph Spoke of his imprisonment in Missouri, and of the shameful kidnapping of his witnesses, and their being thrust into prison to prevent them from giving their testimony in his favor.
Governor Ford spoke of the Constitution.
Joseph said we were willing to pay for the press, as he did not want the owners to suffer any loss by it, neither did he wish such a libellous paper to be published in Nauvoo. As for calling out the Nauvoo Legion; if it was intended to resist the Government of the State it would be treason, but as they believed they were endeavoring to defend themselves, and had no such intention as to resist the Government it was all right.


Who wrote this? More than likely George Albert Smith. You can compare all of this with the History of the Church Vol. 6, found here, https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/volu ... er-31#fn-1

When they did the original draft for this date, there is nothing there. http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ust-1844/1

I think what our resident Apologist was implying, was that Smith had offered to pay for the damages so it didn't really matter. But it did. We really have no idea if Joseph offered to pay for anything, until he was cornered in a jail and facing the law and an angry mob out for blood. But from everything I've read, Joseph wasn't sorry about any of it, and was still trying to justify it even when he was jailed at Carthage. Look at the language he uses in connection with Law, etc. Does that sound like he was at all concerned about their welfare or what they lost? He was sorry that he didn't go after them personally also.

But the bottom line here, is that everything the Laws, etc. wrote in the Expositor, was TRUE.
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_grindael
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _grindael »

I think it’s too bad also. I’m not sure the current board culture is amenable to making room for others if those others are believing LDS folks.


Well, if they would do what they say, and stick to the evidence and facts, I think there is a lot of room for believing LDS folks. But the OP was designed to push some people's buttons.
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_grindael
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _grindael »

To refresh, she wrote,

Anyway, the majority legal opinion seems to have been that the destruction of the press was legal according to the laws of the day, but the destruction of the TYPE was not, and Joseph Smith said that he would pay for the type. (James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard, Story of the Latter-day Saints, 2nd edition revised and enlarged, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1992[1976]), 208)


1st, No one ANYWHERE says Joseph offered to pay for the TYPE. He simply (after being jailed) said he would take responsibility for his actions and if a court decided against him, he would make things "right". In other words, he would pay damages. Where in this quote, did Allen say Joseph said he would "pay for the type"?

John Taylor, Willard Richards, Dan Jones, Stephen Markham, and John S. Fullmer accompanied Joseph and Hyrum to jail. When Jones, Markham, and Fullmer left on errands, they were refused reentrance. On June 26, Governor Ford visited the jail. In the discussion that followed, Joseph Smith defended his mobilization of the legion as a precautionary measure. He explained that he had no intention of invading non-Mormon regions as his accusers claimed. He also satisfied the governor concerning the city council's action and offered to pay for the property damaged if that would appease those plotting his destruction.


2nd, This is framed as a "tit for tat", not Joseph admitting he was wrong and offering to pay as our Apologist implies. No reference for Allen's claims here. Joseph did NOT satisfy the Governor with his explanation of what the City Council did. Joseph was adamant that he didn't see it the same way that Ford did. Joseph did not care a whit about Law and what they might have lost. He was confident he was right in everything he did. Our Apologist wants us to believe that Joseph knew destroying the type was wrong and offered to pay for it. It like someone coming over to your house and destroying your car, and then when you confront them and threaten them, (with whatever action) they say, hey, if you'll just stop threatening me, I'll pay you off. Was Joseph going to allow Law & Co. back into Nauvoo to set up shop there again? No way in hell was he going to do that. So was he going to pay to relocate them all, etc? It's just all a fantasy. The whole matter was just so complicated because every venue was messed up by favoritism. Nauvoo was in control of Joseph/the Mormons and the outlying areas were in control of his enemies. We saw this play out in later trials.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
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_Meadowchik
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Meadowchik »

Kishkumen wrote:
Water Dog wrote:My first impression of Niadna was that she's just TBM immature and figured it would go this way. Was a waste of time to try engaging. Anybody who shows up here has to go through the initiation ritual. I went through it, and I've seen many others go through it. If you can't handle it, you don't belong here. Even after things settle down, there is a certain intensity that prevails. That's just the board culture. If you can't handle the initiation, you simply won't be able to hold your own in discussions long-term. Particularly if you're in the minority view on a subject. Making matters worse she was bringing it on herself by going on the offensive the way she did. I still am perplexed about her rantings against Christians/Evangelicals. Not sure what this had to do with anything. I'm not sure what the point of this thread even was.


She reminds me of Meg Stout.


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_cwald
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _cwald »

grindael wrote:
But the bottom line here, is that everything the Laws, etc. wrote in the Expositor, was TRUE.


Right. Most rational people will come to that conclusion after listening to this classic ME podcast. https://www.acast.com/mormonexpression/episode-24a-the-nauvoo-expositor-for-dummies-part-1
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_moksha
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _moksha »

grindael wrote:But the bottom line here, is that everything the Laws, etc. wrote in the Expositor, was TRUE.

It doesn't matter if the criticism of a Church leader is true, what matters is now effective the mob was in smashing that printing press. It would take an anti-Mormon to root for the printing press!
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