Bill Reel--Disciplinary Court is Imminent

[_Doctor Steuss]

Not to get too personal, but do you hang with the exMo Facebook group out of vegas? After relocating out here, I used to hang with some ex Mormons here but now I just kind of do my own thing.

PM headed your way.

[Guest]

This has got to be worth two or three podcast episodes...I'd be tempted to call all 15 Apostles as witnesses.

A kangaroo court is a court that ignores recognized standards of law or justice, and often carries little or no official standing in the territory within which it resides.[1] The term may also apply to a court held by a legitimate judicial authority who intentionally disregards the court's legal or ethical obligations. The defendants in such courts are often denied access to legal representation and in some cases, proper defence.

Prejudicial bias of the decision-maker or from political decree are among the most publicized causes of kangaroo courts.[citation needed] Such proceedings are often held to give the appearance of a fair and just trial, even though the verdict was already decided before the trial actually began.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_court

[_Fence Sitter]

“The council will consider all the information presented…”

I'd be tempted to drop some hardcore $$$ at Kinkos, and show up with boxes and boxes of stuff. Most of it Mormon related, but some random stuff (like a repair manual for a 1991 Chevy Silverado) tossed in for good measure.

He is not going to be tried for what he is saying or allowed to defend what he has said. He will be tried for failing to follow leadership instructions. So I would be willing to bet the SP will have the final say in what information is allowed to be presented. This isn't a trail, it is a sentencing hearing.

[_toon]

What could the Church actually do if a member signed the confidentiality agreement but still made the details of the excommunication process (because that's what it is) public?

In Sam Young's case, it sounds like someone took notes on behalf of the Stake President/High Council. Seems like that was a violation of the agreement that all people present had to sign not to record the proceeding.

If I were in one of these things, I'd be a dick and ask to see all the signed confidentiality agreements, making sure that everyone present had signed one. The minute I saw someone taking notes, I'd interrupt and ask, "What's he doing? I though nobody was to record the meeting." Because taking notes is making a record -- recording. I'd then call into question their integrity as they tried to explain what they really mean by recording, which was probably limited to something audio or visual. "If you can't abide by that, what's to stop me?" I'd probably point out that it's still a recording in violation of the agreement, even if made after the fact. "And since this applies to private use also, I better not find out that one of your wrote what happened down in some journal." And then I'd look at one of them, someone random, and make an obvious wink.

Frankly, I'd probably try to take up as much time on insignificant procedural issues as possible. And then once they got around to the merits, I'd submit my resignation.

[_Jersey Girl]

What could the Church actually do if a member signed the confidentiality agreement but still made the details of the excommunication process (because that's what it is) public?

In Sam Young's case, it sounds like someone took notes on behalf of the Stake President/High Council. Seems like that was a violation of the agreement that all people present had to sign not to record the proceeding.

If I were in one of these things, I'd be a dick and ask to see all the signed confidentiality agreements, making sure that everyone present had signed one. The minute I saw someone taking notes, I'd interrupt and ask, "What's he doing? I though nobody was to record the meeting." Because taking notes is making a record -- recording. I'd then call into question their integrity as they tried to explain what they really mean by recording, which was probably limited to something audio or visual. "If you can't abide by that, what's to stop me?" I'd probably point out that it's still a recording in violation of the agreement, even if made after the fact. "And since this applies to private use also, I better not find out that one of your wrote what happened down in some journal." And then I'd look at one of them, someone random, and make an obvious wink.

Frankly, I'd probably try to take up as much time on insignificant procedural issues as possible. And then once they got around to the merits, I'd submit my resignation.

I agree with you as to how to proceed. Sam requested a copy of the notes after the fact. He'll never see them of course.

[_cwald]

What? I thought Bill got excommunicated years ago?

We use to debate this all the time when we were members at stayLDS. I told Bill there was no room for him in the Mormon church and they would never allow him and myself a seat at the table, and he argue and argue with me that there was a middle way to make it work. I got kicked out and banned from stayLDS over this kind of crap. If I remember right Bill, you owe me an apology. You told me you would apologize and admit I was right if the church ever excommunicated you. Remember? I take no joy in it, but, I was right, and you were wrong. Very wrong.

THERE IS NO MIDDLE WAY.

I detest the corporate church and their disciplinary process, but come on, this has been a long time coming. No one, including Bill, should be surprised.

Bill, my hope and suggestion is don't let the church off easy...don't resign. Make them have to do the dirty work. Don't do it for them. Just my opinion today.

Peace.

[_Jersey Girl]

cwald as a Never I thought that a middle way might be possible. I agree with you now that there is not. At least for me there wouldn't. The convoluted and damaging Nov 5th policy on children of gays would have sent me running for the door never to return.

That's what would have done it for me. No question about it.

[_GameOver]

He will be excommunicated, of course. You can’t call one of the Apostles a LIAR and not be disciplined. I believe he should resign beforehand or at the hearing. He’s in Mormon country, and there’s a stigma attached to excommunication. If he continues to disseminate Mormon content, it would be better for him to quietly step out through resignation, rather than having the taint of excommunication persuade future listeners.

Bill’s a really good guy. He will be just fine.

[_cwald]

He will be excommunicated, of course. You can’t call one of the Apostles a LIAR and not be disciplined. I believe he should resign beforehand or at the hearing. He’s in Mormon country, and there’s a stigma attached to excommunication. If he continues to disseminate Mormon content, it would be better for him to quietly step out through resignation, rather than having the taint of excommunication persuade future listeners.

Bill’s a really good guy. He will be just fine.

I agree that Bill is a good guy.


Resigning lets the church off the hook. The church says, "oh look, Bill resigned. He quit. He was welcome and we wanted him to stick around but he CHOOSE to leave. It was his choice." The simple fact is, Bill WANTS to stay and be a Mormon. It's his tagline.

Excommunication is saying you are no longer welcome. You are no longer worthy to be a part of us and we don't want you in our congregations. Excommunicating members for criticizing and questioning the leaders, is about as culty and totalitarian as it gets in religion, and really makes the church look bad. And that is what Bill does well...he makes the church look bad.

That is a compliment by the way.

Totalitarianism is a political concept that defines a mode of government, which prohibits opposition parties, restricts individual opposition to the state and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life.

[_I have a question]

Whilst it's tempting for a variety of reasons to want to play their game, doing gives their process credibility. Acknowledging the letter and attending the council simply positively reinforces the belief that the Church has authority over you. It could be viewed that Bill tacitly "resigned" from the institutional tribe (maybe not his familial and societal tribe) some time ago.